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What is a Christian college degree worth—and should its value be determined by how much graduates earn? Christianity Today senior news editor Emily Belz joins Loren to discuss the uncertain future facing Christian higher education--particularly regarding a new federal regulation would evaluate college programs based on whether their graduates earn more than people without the degree, potentially cutting off federal financial aid to programs that fail the test. Because ministry, theology, and religious studies often prepare people for lower-paying vocations, Christian colleges and seminaries could be particularly vulnerable.  They also discuss declining demographics, international-student restrictions, artificial intelligence, institutional closures, and the financial pressures forcing Christian colleges to reconsider traditional models of education. Emily argues that the future may depend less on finding one new model than on institutions understanding who they are, what they do well, and making decisions consistent with their mission.  Together they explore: Why Christian higher education is experiencing both growth and institutional closures How a new federal earnings test could affect seminaries and ministry programs Why measuring a degree primarily by graduates' income creates problems for ministry and other service-oriented professions How colleges may restructure programs to preserve access to financial aid The demographic and financial pressures facing Christian colleges Why institutional mission should shape how schools adapt How immigration enforcement is affecting pastors and congregations Emily Belz is a senior news editor. She has almost 20 years of experience in long-form feature reporting and writing in local, national, and international news. In addition to CT, she has written for The New York Times, World, Plough, the New York Daily News, The Hill, and The Indianapolis Star. She has won awards including one for feature writing from the Evangelical Press Association as well as the Zenger Prize. She lives in New York City.   Mentioned Resources: 🌐 Emily's writing: Christianity Today 🟧 Emily's Substack: @emilybelz 🌐 The article we discuss: Existential Threat 🎧 Episodes Referenced: John Hawthorne    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: futurechristianpod 📱 Martha's Instagram: martha_tatarnic 📱 Loren's Instagram: lorenrichmondjr 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Emily Belz, Christianity Today, Christian higher education, Christian colleges, Christian universities, Christian seminaries, future of Christian higher education, future of Christian colleges, higher education crisis, Christian college enrollment, seminary enrollment, theological education, ministry education, ministry degrees, religious studies programs, federal student loans, federal financial aid, college financial aid, student loans, college affordability, earnings test, value of a college degree, ministry and money, Christian college closures, seminary closures, demographic cliff, higher education demographics, Bible colleges, Bible college closures, institutional sustainability, Christian institutions, church leadership, Christian leadership, vocational ministry, ministry training, immigration and churches, immigration enforcement, Latino churches, Christianity and immigration, Christian journalism, religious journalism, future of journalism, local journalism, Christianity Today journalism, journalism and AI, artificial intelligence and journalism, local community, future of the church, future of Christianity, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What happens when the church becomes more concerned with managing its message than hearing difficult truths? Matthew Townsend joins Martha Tatarnic to discuss the role of journalism, truth-telling, and accountability within Christian institutions. Matthew served as editor of the Anglican Journal from 2019 to 2021 before leaving following a conflict over the treatment of confidential sources. Now a member of an Orthodox parish, he reflects on his experience in church journalism and the recent decision to end the Anglican Journal's journalistic independence and incorporate it into the Anglican Church of Canada's communications strategy. Martha and Matthew explore why churches need people willing to describe reality as it is, especially when institutions are anxious about decline or their future. They discuss journalism as a form of truth-telling, the relationship between accountability and institutional power, and why critical voices can contribute to better discernment even when they make leaders uncomfortable. Together they explore: What happened to the Anglican Journal's journalistic independence Why churches need truth-tellers and independent voices How institutional decline can intensify anxiety and message management Why progressive institutions aren't immune from failures of accountability The relationship between truth-telling, prophecy, and Christian faith Why the future of Christianity may require presence and stability rather than constantly seeking something new Matthew Townsend served as editor of the Anglican Journal, at the time a journalistic publication of the Anglican Church of Canada, from 2019 to 2021. Mistreatment of confidential sources prompted Matthew to leave his position, the denomination, and ecclesial work. Originally from Florida, Matthew and his family live in Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, and worship at St. Vladimir Orthodox Church (OCA) in Halifax.   Mentioned Resources: 🌐 His Current Publication: southdartmouth.ca      Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: futurechristianpod 📱 Martha's Instagram: martha_tatarnic 📱 Loren's Instagram: lorenrichmondjr 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Matthew Townsend, Anglican Journal, Anglican Church of Canada, Christian journalism, religious journalism, church journalism, journalism and Christianity, truth telling in the church, church accountability, institutional accountability, church leadership, congregational leadership, institutional church, church communications, church public relations, church transparency, independent journalism, Christian truth telling, prophetic voice, discernment, church decline, institutional decline, declining churches, anxious church, church anxiety, church institutions, Anglicanism, Anglican Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Orthodox Christianity, church and power, colonialism and Christianity, Indigenous reconciliation, residential schools, church abuse, religious institutions, Christian leadership accountability, future of the church, future of Christianity, church renewal, faithful presence, Christianity and culture, Future Christian Podcast, Martha Tatarnic, Loren Richmond Jr.

What if the most essential resource to make a ministry last isn't money--it's relationships? Rev. Dr. Eric H. F. Law returns to podcast to talk with Loren about why some of the most important resources for sustainable ministry aren't found in a budget. Sharing about his Holy Currencies framework, Law describes the six resources that help ministries become sustainable: money, time and place, gracious leadership, relationships, truth, and wellness. Drawing on decades of work with congregations, Law explains why relationships may be the resource churches most often overlook—and why listening to a community can be more important than launching another well-funded program. Together they explore: What makes a ministry sustainable Why money isn't necessarily a church's most important resource Listening to a community before deciding what it needs Moving from transactional service to genuine relationship Developing ministries that aren't dependent on one leader Knowing when it's time for a ministry to change or end The Rev. Dr. Eric H. F. Law is the founder of the Kaleidoscope Institute, which provides resources to equip leaders to create diverse and sustainable communities. Since his retirement from being the Executive Director, he continues his support of the Kaleidoscope Institute as its Innovator.  He has been a consultant and trainer for over 30 years working with religious and not-for -profit organizations across the U.S.A., and Canada.  Besides creating effective anti-racism training and curricula for building inclusive sustainable communities, he had successfully created a curriculum for incubation of sustainable and impactful projects addressing economic, social, spiritual, mental and physical wellness - from initial idea to launching innovative and sustainable action plan.  He is the author of over 12 books including Holy Currencies, Fear Not: Living Grace and Truth in a Frightened World, The Wolf Shall Dwell with the Lamb, and  Inclusion:Making Room for Grace.  He is singer-songwriter-recording artist, an Episcopal priest, a photographer and a playwright.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: Holy Currencies 🌐 His Website: Kscopeinstitute.org 🎧 Listen to his music: erichflaw.hearnow.com 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Eric Law    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: futurechristianpod 📱 Martha's Instagram: martha_tatarnic 📱 Loren's Instagram: lorenrichmondjr 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Eric H. F. Law, Holy Currencies, sustainable ministry, sustainable church ministry, ministry sustainability, church sustainability, church resources, church finances, money and ministry, funding ministry, relational ministry, relationship building, church and community, community engagement, missional ministry, missional church, church leadership, congregational leadership, gracious leadership, leadership development, ministry burnout, clergy burnout, Sabbath and ministry, church volunteers, volunteer leadership, church renewal, church decline, congregational vitality, church outreach, community partnerships, listening to the community, transactional ministry, church innovation, Kaleidoscope Institute, Holy Currency Exchange, Drawing on Holy Currencies, Fear Not, future of the church, future of Christianity, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

In this special episode, Martha Tatarnic interviews co-host Loren Richmond Jr. about his new book, The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive. Loren shares what inspired the book—including a visit to a small Canadian church serving migrant farm workers—and how years of conversations on Future Christian helped shape his thinking. At the heart of the book is a simple question: What if church buildings were understood not simply as places Christians gather, but as resources entrusted to congregations for the flourishing of their neighborhoods? Together they explore: What inspired The Church as Community Hub How Future Christian conversations shaped the book Why mission—not institutional survival—must come first Starting small and experimenting rather than looking for a magic bullet Why reimagining church property can be an act of hope What it means to equip congregations not necessarily to save the church, but to be the church Loren Richmond Jr. is a pastor, chaplain, and nonprofit leader. He is the director of development and programming for Green Room Leaders, as well as a cofounder and cohost of the Future Christian Podcast. His Substack is The Church Nerd. Richmond has worked in five Christian traditions, and he holds an MDiv from Phillips Seminary and an MBA in Nonprofit Management from Hope International University. He lives in Thornton, Colorado. Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: The Church as Community Hub 🌐 His Website: lorenrichmondjr.com 📱 Socials: @lorenrichmondjr 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Chad Brooks 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Michael Graham 🎧 Episodes Referenced: John Cleghorn 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Grace Pomroy 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Bob Jaeger 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Mike Cosper    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: futurechristianpod 📱 Martha's Instagram: martha_tatarnic 📱 Loren's Instagram: lorenrichmondjr 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Loren Richmond Jr., The Church as Community Hub, church as community hub, church buildings, church property, church building reuse, reimagining church buildings, underused church buildings, church property ministry, church and community development, community hub model, neighborhood ministry, community engagement, church leadership, congregational leadership, church renewal, church decline, declining churches, future of the church, church innovation, missional church, church mission, adaptive ministry, church partnerships, sacred space, noncommercial community space, stewardship of church property, church buildings and mission, neighborhood flourishing, mainline Christianity, Martha Tatarnic, Future Christian Podcast

What happens when the wounds we've experienced begin to define who we are? Dr. Derwin Gray—former NFL player, founding pastor of Transformation Church, and author of It’s Time to Heal—joins Loren to talk about trauma, healing, identity, and the transforming power of the gospel. Drawing from his own experiences of childhood trauma, Gray describes how he learned to identify the lies shaping his life and replace them with a new identity rooted in Christ. Gray argues that churches must take abuse, religious trauma, and destructive leadership seriously while also distinguishing those experiences from the ordinary conflict and friction that inevitably occur within Christian community. Healing requires honesty about what happened—but our wounds do not have to become our identity. Together they explore: Why Christianity isn't simply about “sin management” Trauma, neuroplasticity, and what Gray calls “Christ behavioral therapy” Why woundedness can become an identity The difference between serious church abuse and ordinary church conflict Forgiveness, reconciliation, and healthy Christian community Why no political party should become synonymous with Christianity And, naturally, whether Russell Wilson belongs in the Hall of Fame—and Derwin's surprisingly optimistic prediction for the Carolina Panthers. Dr. Derwin L. Gray is the co-founding and lead pastor of Transformation Church (TC), one of the fastest growing churches in America. TC is a multiethnic, multigenerational, mission-shaped community near Charlotte, NC. Pastor Derwin and his wife, Vicki, have been married since 1992 and have two children: daughter, Presley, and son, Jeremiah. He is a bestselling author of several books including Lit Up With Love, The Good Life, Limitless Life, God, Do You Hear Me?, Building a Multiethnic Church, and How to Heal Our Racial Divide. Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book:  It's Time to Heal 🌐 His Website: derwinlgray.com 🌐 Transformation Church: transformationchurch.tc 🎧 His Podcast: Transforming the church 📱 Socials: @derwinlgray    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: futurechristianpod 📱 Martha's Instagram: martha_tatarnic 📱 Loren's Instagram: lorenrichmondjr 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Derwin Gray, Dr. Derwin L. Gray, It’s Time to Heal, Christian healing, healing from trauma, trauma and Christianity, church hurt, healing from church hurt, religious trauma, Christian identity, woundedness and identity, forgiveness and healing, reconciliation, Christian mental health, faith and therapy, post traumatic growth, cognitive behavioral therapy and Christianity, Transformation Church, Christian leadership, pastoral leadership, political polarization and Christianity, church and politics, MAGA and Christianity, evangelicalism and politics, future of evangelicalism, American Christianity, multiethnic church, N.T. Wright, John Wesley, NFL and Christianity, faith and football, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What happens when the church’s desire for growth becomes a form of idolatry? Andrew Root returns to Future Christian to discuss his new book, Baal and the Gods of More: Rescuing Church Growth from Idolatry. Root argues that churches across the theological spectrum have become captured by a logic of escalation: more people, more resources, more innovation, more relevance, more affirmation. The problem is that there is never a point when we can finally say, “Enough.” Drawing connections between the worship of Baal in the Old Testament, modern capitalism, and contemporary church growth, Loren and Andy explore what churches believe will actually save them. They discuss Root’s categories of “techno-optimists” and “identitarians”—two groups that may appear opposed but can share the assumption that the church will survive if it can simply accumulate enough of the right kind of capital. Together they explore: When church growth becomes a form of idolatry Why churches struggle to ever say “enough” Techno-optimists, identitarians, and competing visions of church renewal Why money can function as more “real” than God in church decision-making The relationship between economic prosperity and American Protestantism Why the church keeps trying to recover its golden age Prayer, confession, and discerning where God is actually at work Andrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson professor of youth and family ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations.  His recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline, When Church Stops Working, and The Church After Innovation. Andy has worked in congregations, parachurch ministries, and social service programs. He lives in St. Paul with his wife Kara, two children, Owen and Maisy, and their dog. When not reading, writing, or teaching, Andy spends far too much time watching TV and movies. Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book:  Baal and the gods of more 🌐 The Iowa Preachers Project: iapreachers.org 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Ryan Burge 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Andy Root    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Andrew Root, Baal and the Gods of More, church growth, church growth movement, church growth and idolatry, theology of church growth, church decline, future of the church, Protestant decline, mainline church decline, church innovation, church renewal, theology of the cross, ministry in a secular age, Hartmut Rosa, logic of escalation, capitalism and Christianity, capitalism and church growth, money and ministry, church finances, techno optimism, identity politics and church, identitarianism, Christian identity, law and gospel, Christian ministry, pastoral leadership, congregational leadership, American Protestantism, church attendance decline, Ryan Burge, Luther Seminary, practical theology, future of Christianity, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What if being told “you are enough” isn’t actually good news? David Zahl, founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and author of The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace for a Worn-Out World, joins Loren for an in-person conversation about grace, exhaustion, guilt, and the pressures shaping modern life. Zahl argues that beneath our culture’s constant messages of self-affirmation is an uncomfortable reality: most of us don’t actually feel like we’re enough. The Christian answer isn’t simply to convince ourselves otherwise, but to discover that Christ is enough—and God loves us in the midst of our inadequacy. David and Loren explore the endless pressure to perform—from careers and parenting to politics, social media, and youth sports—and how even attempts to prove our goodness can become exhausting forms of self-justification. They also venture into a provocative conversation about guilt and atonement, including why theological ideas rejected by some Christians may sound very different to someone who has caused real harm and desperately needs forgiveness. Together they explore: Why going to church remains his most important spiritual practice The pressure and exhaustion underneath modern life Why “you are enough” often fails to deliver Grace as an alternative to endless self-justification Guilt, forgiveness, and recovering the language of atonement Why church provides something community alone cannot Why the church needs to get back to the “forgiveness of sins business” David Zahl is the founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries, editor-in-chief of the Mockingbird website, and co-host of both The Mockingcast and The Brothers Zahl podcasts. Zahl is the author of Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technology, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What To Do About It and Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself). His latest book, The Big Relief: The Urgency of Grace for a Worn-Out World appeared in April 2025 from Brazos Press. His writing has been featured in The Washington Post, Christianity Today, and The Guardian, among other venues. He and his family live in Charlottesville, Virginia, where he also serves on the staff of Christ Episcopal Church. Even after all these years, he’s still mourning the end of Calvin and Hobbes (and hoping that Morrissey and Marr will bury the hatchet). His favorite theologian is probably a cross between Johnny Cash, Flannery O’Connor and his brother Simeon.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book:  The Big Relief 🌐 Mockingbird Ministries: Mbird.com 🌐 The Iowa Preachers Project: iapreachers.org 🎧 Mockingbird podcasts: podcasts 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Andy Root    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords David Zahl, The Big Relief, Mockingbird Ministries, grace for a worn out world, Christian grace, theology of grace, you are enough, Christian self worth, self justification, guilt and grace, atonement theology, substitutionary atonement, forgiveness of sins, church and forgiveness, why church matters, importance of church attendance, modern exhaustion, burnout and Christianity, pressure to perform, parenting pressure, youth sports and church, social media and Christianity, Gen Z and Christianity, church and mental health, Andrew Root, Ryan Burge, Jonathan Haidt, Low Anthropology, Seculosity, Christian anthropology, future of Christianity, future of the church, Episcopal Church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What if Christians were known more for what they're for than what they're against? Dave Runyon, executive director of City Unite and co-author of The Art of Neighboring, joins Loren to talk about what it means for Christians and churches to pursue the good of their communities in an increasingly polarized culture. Drawing from years of bringing faith, government, and business leaders together across the Denver metro area, Dave offers a vision for Christian public witness rooted in relationships, collaboration, and actual neighboring. Dave and Loren explore the challenge of creating churches where people with different political convictions can still worship together, why bridge-building requires learning to hold tension, and what Dave learned working with Colorado Governor Jared Polis and hundreds of faith leaders during COVID. They also discuss why the loudest voices on social media may not represent most people—and why Christians shouldn't allow outrage to dictate their public witness. Together they explore: Dave's journey from pastor to community organizer Why politically diverse churches are becoming harder to sustain Holding convictions without turning churches into political echo chambers Why bridge builders have to learn to hold tension Asset-based community development versus organizing around anger Recovering proximity-based relationships and a theology of place Why Christians should be known for what they're for Dave Runyon helps faith, business, and government leaders unite around common causes in the Denver metro area. He serves as the Executive Director of CityUnite and as a consultant for businesses who have a desire to make a positive impact in their communities. Dave helped to start a neighboring movement that has now spread to over 2,500 churches around the country. This experience prompted him to co-author “The Art of Neighboring,” which was published by Baker Books and has sold over 150,000 copies. He speaks locally and nationally, encouraging leaders to collaborate for the good of their cities. Before founding CityUnite, Dave served as a pastor for ten years at Foothills Community Church and The Next Level Church. He graduated from Colorado State University, where he studied history, economics, and education. Dave and his wife, Lauren, have four kids and do not plan to have any more.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: The Art of Neighboring 🌐 City Unite: CityUnite.org 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Alan Roxburgh    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Dave Runyon, City Unite, The Art of Neighboring, love your neighbor, Christian unity, Christian polarization, faith and politics, church and politics, purple church, political diversity in churches, Christian public witness, civic engagement, church and community, community engagement, neighboring movement, theology of place, proximity-based relationships, church unity, bridge building, Christian civility, common good, asset-based community development, John McKnight, Colorado Prayer Luncheon, Governor Jared Polis, faith leaders and government, church collaboration, missional church, William Wilberforce, church leadership, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

Can Mainline Christianity find its future? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with United Methodist scholar Lovett Weems to discuss his new book, An Aura of Hope: United Methodism's Next Chapter in the United States. While the conversation begins with the United Methodist Church's recent disaffiliation, it quickly broadens into a thoughtful exploration of the challenges facing Mainline Christianity as a whole—from shifting demographics and institutional decline to recovering a clear sense of mission. Weems argues that the greatest challenge before the church isn't simply theological disagreement, but a loss of focus. Drawing on John Wesley's theology and decades of church leadership experience, he encourages congregations to rediscover "the people God has given us" and to evaluate every ministry by asking a simple question: "So that...?" What fruit is this producing? How is it helping the church fulfill its mission? Whether you're Methodist or not, this conversation offers practical wisdom for pastors and church leaders wondering what faithful ministry looks like in a rapidly changing world. Together they explore: What the United Methodist disaffiliation teaches the wider church Why churches lose their sense of mission and identity John Wesley's vision for "the people God has given us" Lessons from the Sunday school movement Rural churches, urban growth, and changing demographics Why reaching younger and more diverse communities matters The difference between institutional success and biblical fruitfulness Dr. Lovett H. Weems, Jr., is distinguished professor of church leadership emeritus at Wesley Theological Seminary in Washington, DC. He came to Wesley in 2003 as the founding director of the Wesley’s Lewis Center for Church Leadership after eighteen years as president of Saint Paul School of Theology in Kansas City. Previously he was a pastor in Mississippi for many years. A native of Mississippi, Dr. Weems is a graduate of Millsaps College; Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University; and Wesley Theological Seminary. He holds honorary degrees from Baker University, Central Methodist University, and Millsaps College. His years in local church ministry in Mississippi were marked by both evangelism and social concerns. His work in Mississippi led distinguished Mississippi writer Willie Morris to describe him as “one of the persons who added much to the growing civility of Mississippi.”  He is the author of numerous books including his widely used church leadership text, Church Leadership: Vision, Team, Culture, and Integrity, described by Rosabeth Moss Kanter of Harvard Business School as “an invaluable guide to leadership in the church.” His most recent book is An Aura of Hope: United Methodism’s Next Chapter in the United States.        Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: An Aura of Hope 🌐 Lewis Center for Leadership: churchleadership.com 🟧 His Substack: United Methodist Focus 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Doug Powe      Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Lovett Weems, An Aura of Hope, United Methodist Church, United Methodist disaffiliation, mainline Christianity, future of the mainline church, church leadership, church renewal, congregational leadership, John Wesley, Methodist history, Methodist renewal, church identity, church mission, common good, Christian leadership, church demographics, rural churches, urban ministry, Sunday school movement, church growth, church decline, congregational vitality, fruitfulness in ministry, Lewis Center for Church Leadership, Francis Asbury, Christian conferencing, church and culture, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What if the sermon wasn't something delivered to the congregation—but something created with the congregation? In this episode, Martha Tatarnic talks with the Rev. Peter Levenstrong, associate rector of St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco and author of Collaborative Sermons. Peter shares how his congregation developed "Living Story Sermons," an interactive, tactile approach to preaching that invites worshippers to wonder together, contribute their own insights, and trust the Holy Spirit to speak through the entire community—not just the preacher. Drawing from years of experimentation and research across multiple congregations, Peter discusses why collaborative preaching is more than a novel technique. It's a response to spiritual trauma, declining trust in institutions, growing digital isolation, and the church's need to become an embodied, relational community in an AI-shaped world. Together, Martha and Peter explore how collaborative sermons foster biblical engagement, deepen participation, create healing, and offer a compelling vision for the future of Christian worship. Together they explore: Why traditional sermons often assume only one person has something worthwhile to say The origins of Living Story Sermons during the COVID pandemic How collaborative preaching builds trust and participation Research findings on biblical retention and congregational engagement Why collaborative sermons can be healing for people with church hurt Creating "analog havens" in an increasingly AI-driven world The future of preaching, worship, and embodied Christian community The Rev. Peter Levenstrong is Associate Rector at St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church in San Francisco, where over the past six years he developed Living Stories Sermons, a collaborative, tactile preaching method now used by more than 130 preachers across denominations. His book Collaborative Sermons: A Guide to Authentic, Interactive Worship through Living Stories is out from Church Publishing in August 2026. He writes about the human part of ministry in an AI world on his Substack, The Human Part, and is a Trinity Leadership Fellow (2025–27) and Senior Fellow on AI at TryTank Research Institute. He holds an MDiv from Yale Divinity School and lives in Oakland with his wife Kaitlin and their son Caspian.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: Collaborative Sermons 🌐 Living Stories Newsletter: LSS Sign-Up for Newsletter 🟧 Peter's Substack: The Human Part 📱 Socials: His Facebook 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Doug Pagitt    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Peter Levenstrong, Collaborative Sermons, Living Story Sermons, collaborative preaching, interactive preaching, participatory worship, sermon preparation, preaching and AI, AI and ministry, future of preaching, Episcopal Church, St. Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church, Godly Play, Jerome Berryman, intergenerational worship, worship innovation, biblical engagement, church leadership, preaching methods, homiletics, sermon collaboration, Holy Spirit and preaching, analog church, embodied worship, digital discipleship, church and artificial intelligence, worship renewal, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Martha Tatarnic, Loren Richmond Jr.

What does faithful Christian engagement in politics actually look like? In this episode, Loren talks with Justin Giboney, co-founder and president of the AND Campaign, to discuss his book Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around. Drawing lessons from the Black Church during the Civil Rights Movement, Giboney argues that Christians today have much to learn about integrity, public witness, moral imagination, and resisting the temptation to sacrifice biblical principles for political victories. The conversation also examines moral imagination, the role of institutions, gerrymandering, Christian public witness, and why the Civil Rights Movement remains one of the clearest examples of faithful political engagement in American history. Rather than offering partisan solutions, Giboney challenges Christians to recover a distinctly Christian approach to civic life that reflects the character of Jesus. Together they explore: What the Civil Rights Movement teaches Christians today Moral imagination and faithful public witness Why good causes don't justify unethical means The danger of making political opponents irredeemable Self-purification, spiritual formation, and Christian activism How Christians can engage politics without embracing tribalism Why justice and the gospel belong together   Justin E. Giboney (JD, Vanderbilt University) is the cofounder and president of the AND Campaign, a Christian civic organization focused on raising civic literacy, promoting civic pluralism, and equipping Christians to engage politics with the love and truth of Jesus Christ. An ordained minister, attorney, and political strategist, Giboney has been featured in publications such as the New York Times and Christianity Today and is the coauthor of the book Compassion (&) Conviction. He lives in Atlanta, Georgia, with his wife and three sons.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His Book: Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around 🌐 Website: andcampaign.org/ 📱 Socials: @justinegiboney 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Ryan Burge    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Justin Giboney, AND Campaign, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around, Black church, Civil Rights Movement, Christian public witness, faith and politics, Christian political engagement, moral imagination, Christian ethics, church and politics, civic engagement, political polarization, justice and the gospel, Christian nationalism, Christian civic responsibility, public theology, Martin Luther King Jr., Frederick Douglass, Ryan Burge, The Vanishing Church, Christian leadership, church and democracy, church and culture, civic pluralism, Christian discipleship, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

Why do so many church renewal efforts fall short? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with Kris Vos and Larry Doornbos of the Center for Church Renewal about what they've learned from working with more than 120 congregations across North America. Rather than offering quick fixes or flashy programs, they make the case that genuine renewal begins with listening, discipleship, and a renewed commitment to the church's mission. The conversation explores the common challenges facing churches today—from declining attendance and outdated governance structures to unhealthy congregational cultures and the temptation to prioritize institutional survival over the gospel. Kris and Larry explain why renewal is measured in years, not months, and why churches must focus on making disciples rather than simply attracting attenders. They also discuss practical leadership questions: how to create a culture of grace and permission, why church structures should serve mission instead of hindering it, how congregations can better connect with their communities, and what leaders can learn from Native American and Latino churches about relationships and storytelling. Throughout the conversation, they emphasize that renewal is possible—but only through patient, intentional leadership rooted in the gospel. Together they explore: Why churches often misdiagnose their real problems The "Big Three" challenges facing most congregations Why outreach often fails to build lasting relationships How church governance can either enable or hinder mission Why renewal takes far longer than most churches expect When churches should pursue renewal—and when it may be time to "complete and bless" Lessons from Native American and Latino congregations Kris Vos is the campus pastor of a church restart in Lake Worth, FL that is part of Sunlight Community Church campuses of South Florida. He is also the Director of the Center for Church Renewal. Previously, he spent 20 years leading a church plant, Crossroads Community Church, in Schererville, IN. On his journey of church planting, he spent time learning from and training other church planters. Currently, in the work of renewal he has come alongside other renewal leaders. His greatest passion is building relationships with people who don’t know Christ. He was discipled for 2 years in college and continues to invest himself in discipling others. He is married to Debra and together they have four children and four grandchildren. Larry Doornbos loves and is committed to the local church. He is an experienced pastor, church planter, and leader. He began his ministry in Rehoboth, New Mexico. During his time Rehoboth CRC took fresh steps in ministry and mission. In 1993, Larry, along with a core group of seven families, began EverGreen Ministries in Hudsonville, Michigan. EverGreen is an outward-facing church that serves its community and the world. Larry served as Director of Vibrant Congregations, helping congregations discover their God-given, hope-filled future. Presently he is president of Imagine Church and director of the New Horizons Project. In his free time Larry loves hanging out with his wife Linda (professor at Oakland University), exploring cities and viewing British TV. He also works out, but he does not enjoy that at all. Linda and Larry have two children: Gayle, a professor at Dordt University, and Chris, a special-needs young man who inspires many.   Mentioned Resources: 🌐 Website: ChurchRenew.org 📱 Socials: @centerforchurchrenewal 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Jarrod Longbohns 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Andrew Root    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Kris Vos, Larry Doornbos, Center for Church Renewal, church renewal, church revitalization, renewing the church, congregational renewal, church leadership, church discipleship, making disciples, healthy church culture, church governance, church mission, missional church, church outreach, church growth, church decline, congregational transformation, church vision, discipleship pathway, church culture, church leadership development, Christian Reformed Church, Reformed Church in America, church planting, church life cycle, adaptive church leadership, Native American churches, Latino churches, Andrew Root, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

Every church tells a story. The question is: Is it the right one? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with sociologist Joel Thiessen about The Stories Congregations Tell, a research project exploring why some churches flourish through seasons of transition while others struggle. Drawing on case studies from congregations across Canada, Thiessen argues that the stories churches tell about their past, present, and future profoundly shape their identity, leadership, and mission. The conversation explores how congregations develop a healthy sense of identity without becoming trapped by nostalgia, why flourishing is about far more than numerical growth, and how local churches are constantly shaped by the wider cultural stories surrounding them. Thiessen also explains why sociology can help churches understand themselves more honestly—not to replace theology, but to deepen it. Whether your church is growing, plateauing, or navigating significant change, this conversation offers practical wisdom for understanding the narratives that shape congregational life—and how a healthier story can lead to a healthier future. Together they explore: Why every congregation tells a story—and why it matters How churches connect their past, present, and future The cultural stories shaping congregational life How churches develop resilience through seasons of change The importance of intergenerational community How churches can resist the "bigger is better" mindset Practical ways congregations can discover and live into their own story Joel Thiessen is Professor of Sociology, Chair of the Social Sciences Department, and Director of the Flourishing Congregations Institute at Ambrose University in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. He is a sociologist of religion who specializes in religion in Canada, religious nones, congregations, millennials, and more recently, death and dying.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 The book: The Stories Congregations Tell 🌐 Website: joelthiessen.ca 🌐 Website: www.flourishingcongregations.org 📱 Socials: linkedin 🎧 Episodes Referenced: David Anderson Hooker 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Gerardo Marti & Mark Mulder 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Andrew Root 🎧 Episodes Referenced: John Hawthorne 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Cash & Wilcoxson  🎧 Episodes Referenced: Christian Smith    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Joel Thiessen, The Stories Congregations Tell, flourishing congregations, church storytelling, congregational identity, church leadership, congregational flourishing, church growth research, sociology of religion, Canadian churches, church culture, congregational change, resilient churches, church transitions, church narrative, congregational resilience, intergenerational church, church mission and identity, spiritual formation, church leadership development, keychain leadership, Hartmut Rosa, Andrew Root, Christian Smith, Richard Osmer, Flourishing Congregations Institute, Ambrose University, future of the church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

Why do church search committees so often struggle to find the right pastor? In this episode, Loren Richmond Jr. talks with novelist Michelle Huneven about her acclaimed novel Search, a witty and surprisingly insightful look at the dynamics of a church pastoral search committee. Although fictional, the novel captures many of the real-world challenges congregations face as they discern leadership, navigate competing priorities, and wrestle with their own identities. The conversation explores why churches are often drawn to charismatic candidates, how institutional blind spots shape hiring decisions, and why healthy congregations begin with self-awareness rather than simply searching for the "perfect" pastor. Huneven reflects on the parallels between church searches, university hiring, and other institutional decision-making, highlighting how group dynamics, consensus, and competing visions of the future influence outcomes. They also discuss declining church attendance, denominational structures, diversity, congregational governance, and the enduring tension between preserving tradition and embracing change. Along the way, Huneven shares practical wisdom from her own experience as a novelist, teacher, and occasional preacher about creativity, leadership, and the writing process. Together they explore: Why church search committees often struggle to discern the right leader The appeal—and danger—of charismatic candidates How group dynamics shape congregational decision-making Institutional health and leadership transitions Consensus, conflict, and competing visions for the future Why healthy churches are marked by self-awareness Michelle Huneven is the author of six novels, most recently Search and Bug Hollow. She teaches creative writing at UCLA. Among other honors she has received a James Beard Award, a Guggenheim Fellowship, and a Literature Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. She lost her house in Altadena, California in the Eaton fire so, while rebuilding, she lived in Los Angeles with her husband, dog, and talkative African Gray parrot.   Mentioned Resources: 📖 Her book: Search 🌐 Her Website: Michelle Huneven.com 📱 Socials: @michellehuneven 🎧 Episodes Referenced:    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Michelle Huneven, Search novel, church search committees, pastoral search process, calling a pastor, church leadership transitions, congregational discernment, church governance, congregational polity, church committee dynamics, hiring a pastor, pastoral candidates, church conflict, charismatic leadership, institutional leadership, church decision making, healthy churches, congregational self-awareness, Unitarian Universalist church, Christian Church Disciples of Christ, United Church of Christ, Methodist church appointments, church decline, future of the church, ministry leadership, church consulting, creative writing and faith, novels about church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.

What happens when artificial intelligence becomes part of everyday life—and what role should the church play in helping people navigate it? In this episode, Loren welcomes theologian, pastor, and AI thought leader Christopher Benek for a conversation about artificial intelligence, spiritual formation, ethics, and the future of the church. Drawing on more than a decade of work at the intersection of faith and technology, Benek argues that AI is not merely a technological challenge but a deeply theological one. The conversation explores how churches can move beyond fear and hype to cultivate wisdom, discernment, and meaningful conversations about emerging technologies. Benek reflects on AI's impact on preaching, ministry, work, identity, and ethics, while emphasizing that the church's unique contribution is not technical expertise but spiritual formation. Together they discuss the opportunities and risks presented by AI, why pastors should help people make meaning in a rapidly changing world, and how Christian communities can become places where technologists, leaders, and everyday people wrestle with difficult questions together. The episode ultimately returns to themes of hope, discipleship, and the enduring relevance of the church in an age of disruption. Together they explore: Whether AI should be used in sermon preparation and ministry The difference between information, wisdom, and spiritual formation How churches can facilitate conversations about AI ethics Why pastors remain essential in an age of technological change Whether AI represents the biggest technological shift since the printing press How Christians can engage AI without fear or panic What the church uniquely offers in a rapidly changing world   The Rev. Dr. Christopher J. Benek is an internationally recognized pastor, theologian, and thought leader at the crossroads of faith and technology. His insights on artificial intelligence and theology have been featured in major outlets, including The New York Times, The Guardian, BBC, Le Monde, and others.  He has advised companies, policymakers, and governments on AI’s ethical and societal impact.  With more than 20 years of pastoral ministry, he currently serves as pastor of First Miami Presbyterian Church and CEO of The CoCreators Network, an organization dedicated to the vision of Better People, Better Tech, Better World.  Learn more about him at ChristopherBenek.com   Mentioned Resources: 📖 His book: The Church Leader's Guide to AI 🌐 His Website: ChristopherBenek.com 📱 Socials: @benekcj 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Chris Benek 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Mark DeYmaz 🎧 Episodes Referenced: Lorenzo Lebrija    Connect with Future Christian: 📱 Future Christian Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/futurechristianpod/ 📱 Martha's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/martha_tatarnic/ 📱 Loren's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/richmondljr/ 🟧 Future Christian Substack: https://futurechristian.substack.com/   Supporting Sponsors: Martha's New Book! Anne Boleyn: Reputation, Revolution, Religion, and the Queen Who Changed History - Available now! Loren's New Book: The Church as Community Hub: Sharing Spaces to Help Neighborhoods Thrive - Available for pre-order! Free Range Priest Helping clergy and congregations reimagine ministry in the digital age.   Future Christian Team: Loren Richmond Jr. – Host & Executive Producer Martha Tatarnic – Co-Host Dennis Sanders – Producer   SEO / Keywords Christopher Benek, artificial intelligence and Christianity, AI and theology, church and artificial intelligence, Christian AI ethics, faith and technology, AI in ministry, AI and preaching, pastors and artificial intelligence, spiritual formation and technology, theology of technology, Christian leadership and AI, AI ethics and faith, church leadership and innovation, future of the church, technology and discipleship, AI and human identity, meaning making and faith, digital ministry, Christian response to AI, AI and spiritual formation, emerging technology and religion, church innovation, theology and science, Christian ethics and technology, First Miami Presbyterian Church, Future Christian Podcast, Loren Richmond Jr.