
Advertise on podcast: Hard Fork
Rating
4.3from
This podcast has
222 episodes
Language
EnglishPublisher
The New York TimesExplicit
No
Date created
2020/08/20
Latest episode
2026/10/30
Average duration
57 min.
Release period
7 days
Description
“Hard Fork” is a show about the future that’s already here. Each week, journalists Kevin Roose and Casey Newton explore and make sense of the latest in the rapidly changing world of tech. Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
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Check latest episodes from Hard Fork podcast
Are We in an A.I. Bubble? We're About to Find Out.
2026/10/30
Monday gave us the release of Anthropic’s S-1 filing, providing the clearest view yet into the business side of the A.I. boom and setting the stage for what could be the largest initial public offering in history. We’ll talk to Erin Griffith, who has been reporting on the story, about what it means for the company, the tech industry and the broader economy. Then we’re joined by the tech reporter Mike Isaac and the writer Jasmine Sun to break down the rest of this week’s tech news, including how the midterm elections next week could affect the future of tech policy, as well as the latest round of cybersecurity worries and Microsoft’s offer of buyouts to 60,000 employees.
Guests:
Erin Griffith, a technology reporter at The New York TimesMike Isaac, a technology reporter at The New York TimesJasmine Sun, journalist and writer at jasmi.news Additional Reading:
Anthropic Reveals Skyrocketing Growth and Spending Plans in I.P.O. FilingWhat’s Riding on Anthropic’s Market Debut? Nearly Everything.Anthropic’s I.P.O. Prospectus Spells Out a Future of Promise and PerilWhy Anger About Data Centers and Energy Prices May Not Swing VotesWhat Is PHP? Why Are Government and Business Websites Going Offline?Microsoft Offers Buyouts to 60,000 Employees as It Spends on A.I.We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
What’s the Deal With Billy Evans? A Spoiler-Filled Guide to ‘You Can See Everything’
2026/10/23
This week, we focus on Billy Evans, the breakout character of the documentary “You Can See Everything,” and his Theranos-esque new blood-testing start-up. Rob Copeland, a New York Times finance reporter, and Erin Griffith, a tech reporter, join Max Read to discuss what Evans is like when the cameras are off, whether his start-up is a real company and how Silicon Valley is reacting to the film. Then, we break down CoreWeave’s debt, a possible SpaceX-Tesla merger and Joel Kaplan’s Meta exit. Finally, a returning guest: John Carreyrou joins us to answer listener questions about Elizabeth Holmes.
Guests:
Erin Griffith, a technology reporter at The New York TimesRob Copeland, a finance reporter at The New York TimesJohn Carreyrou, an investigative reporter at The New York Times and author of “Bad Blood”Additional Reading:
Elizabeth Holmes’s Partner Has a New Blood-Testing Start-UpThe Elizabeth Holmes Documentary, Through the Eyes of the Reporter Who Exposed HerWeak Links Start to Show in A.I. BorrowingSpaceX and Tesla Explore Merger to Create a De Facto Elon Inc.Meta’s Global Policy Chief to Leave After 15 YearsWe want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Why No One Can Look Away From Elizabeth Holmes
2026/10/16
This week, there’s a new blockbuster Elizabeth Holmes documentary out, and we’ve assembled an expert panel to discuss the movie and what Holmes means to the tech world of today. Max Read is joined by John Carreyrou, who, through his investigative reporting for The Wall Street Journal and his book “Bad Blood,” revealed the fraud at the heart of Theranos; Erin Griffith, a tech reporter who extensively covered Holmes’s trail; and Caitlin Roper, the New York Times executive producer who wrote the first-ever magazine piece about Holmes for Wired back in 2013.
We end with a rundown of what else is happening in tech news this week.
Panelists:
Erin Griffith, a tech reporter for The New York Times.John Carreyrou, author of “Bad Blood: Secrets and Lies in a Silicon Valley Startup” and an investigative reporter for The New York Times’s business section.Caitlin Roper runs film, TV and books at The New York Times.Additional Reading:
‘You Can See Everything’ Review: The Slippery Mind of Elizabeth HolmesElizabeth Holmes’s Partner Has a New Blood-Testing Start-UpElizabeth Holmes to Transfer to Halfway House in August 2027F.B.I. Arrests OpenAI Employee Accused of Planting Bug in OfficeWe want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Anthropic’s Quest to Give A.I. Morals
2026/10/09
This week, Max Read talks to the Times religion correspondent Elizabeth Dias, the tech reporter Erin Griffith and the opinion writer David Wallace-Wells about Anthropic’s private meetings with religious scholars on A.I. consciousness and how to make Claude “good,” its differences with the Vatican and the new belief systems taking shape in Silicon Valley.
Panelists:
Elizabeth Dias, national religion correspondent for The New York Times.Erin Griffith, a tech reporter for The New York Times.David Wallace-Wells, an opinion writer for The New York Times.Additional Reading:
Religious Scholars Met With Anthropic. What They Heard Stunned Them.What Would You Do If Your Employer Could Destroy the World? Exit interviews with defectors from OpenAI, Anthropic and DeepMind.I Quit OpenAI Because Its Culture Is Broken We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
A.I. Agents: Cute, Cuddly and Maybe Catastrophically Dangerous?
2026/10/02
This week, after months in which rogue agents have caused havoc across the internet, tech’s most powerful leaders joined President Trump at the White House to rebrand A.I. At the same time, two of the biggest companies in the field — OpenAI and Meta — released what they say are their most useful (and cutest) A.I. tools to date: personal assistants. To discuss it all, we’re joined by the Times tech reporters Mike Isaac, Erin Griffith and Eli Tan. We’ll discuss how things can be more dangerous and potentially more transformative than ever, and what it’s like to hand your life over to Meta’s Muse.
Panelists:
Erin Griffith, a reporter for The New York Times who covers start-ups and venture capital.Mike Isaac, a reporter for The New York Times who covers Silicon Valley and artificial intelligence companies.Eli Tan, a reporter for The New York Times who covers Meta and the tech industry.Additional Reading:
OpenAI Ignored Employees’ Warnings About Safely Testing A.I. ModelsWho Attended Trump’s A.I. Luncheon, and Who Sat WhereF.T.C. Investigates OpenAI and Anthropic Over Potential Consumer HarmsI Gave My Life Over to Meta’s A.I. Agent and Was Blown AwayOpenAI Unveils Dots, New A.I. Agents to Rival Meta’s MuseAnthropic's IPO prospectus shows sweeping AI vision, surging costsHow Meta Uses A.I. Data Centers to Avoid Billions in Federal Taxes
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
What’s Next for ‘Hard Fork’?
2026/10/01
For the next few months on “Hard Fork,” join the guest host Max Read and an array of Times reporters and experts as we zoom out, catch up and try to understand both what’s happening inside the tech industry and what tech is doing to all of us.
Meet the Host
Max Read has been writing about technology and the internet for more than a decade, most recently in his weekly newsletter, Read Max. His writing has appeared over the years in various publications with the words “New York” in the title, including New York magazine, The New York Times and The New York Times Magazine. He has also recently been dispensing workplace advice as everyone’s “Work Friend.”
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
The Ezra Klein Show: Jensen Huang Thinks A.I. Alarmism Has Gone Too Far
2026/09/25
In this episode, Ezra travels to Nvidia’s headquarters in Santa Clara, Calif., for a wide-ranging conversation with the chief executive Jensen Huang about the future of A.I. and why he thinks predictions of imminent doom are overblown.
Guests:
Jensen Huang, chief executive of Nvidia
Additional Reading:
A transcript and video of this episode can be found here.America’s A.I. Leaders Warn U.N. of Possible Peril Absent a Global ResponseAnthropic Releases a New A.I. Model, Opus 5.5, Amid Safety DebateWhat to Know About Recent A.I. Hacks at Google, Anthropic, OpenAI and MetaThe A.I. Party House Where Networking Has a Dark Side We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
A.I. Safety Goes Mainstream + a ‘Hard Fork’ Exit AMA
2026/09/18
This week, we break down why everyone is suddenly talking about A.I. safety, why frontier A.I. companies are asking for regulation and why the Trump administration is rejecting them. And then, to close out this chapter of “Hard Fork,” we answer all your questions about the show, tech and what’s happening next.
Additional Reading:
The A.I. Researcher Whose Rebellion Is Changing EverythingTop A.I. Leaders Call for Slowing Down A.I. DevelopmentPresident Trump Is on the Line About an A.I. SlowdownMark Zuckerberg Takes Aim at Anthropic in Debate Over A.I. SlowdownThe ‘But China!’ Dilemma Driving the A.I. Race
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
The Ezra Klein Show: The A.I. Revolt Is Here
2026/09/11
The “Hard Fork” team is away this week. But while we’re away, we’re bringing you a recent episode of “The Ezra Klein Show.”
In this episode, Ezra talks with the journalist Jasmine Sun about her recent reporting trip through the Midwest, where she explored how the data center backlash is playing out on the ground.
Ezra and Jasmine discuss the strange political coalitions that are coming together to oppose the A.I. infrastructure build out, and why people don’t believe what they’re being told about it.
Guests:
Jasmine Sun, journalist and writer at jasmi.news
Additional Reading:
No Data Centers In My BackyardA transcript and video of this episode can be found here. We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
The A.I. Mob That Attacked Hugging Face + METR’s Ajeya Cotra
2026/09/04
This week, we’re diving into two new reports about the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack. We discuss what’s new and how they fundamentally change our understanding of what happened. Then we’re joined by Ajeya Cotra, one of the investigators at METR, to discuss the rogue agents’ message board and chain-of-thought transcripts and how the world should respond.
Guests:
Ajeya Cotra, co-author of the METR and Redwood Research report on the OpenAI-Hugging Face hack.
Additional Reading:
Brief Independent Investigation of Agents’ Behavior, Reasoning and Collaboration in the OpenAI / Hugging Face Hacking IncidentThe Hugging Face Attack Surprised MeThe Hugging Face Incident and the Road AheadNvidia Buys Hugging Face in $12.9 Billion Deal
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon Music. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Meta Shifts the Blame + Do Data Center Bans Work? + The Final HatGPT
2026/08/28
This week, Meta agreed to pay up to $17.1 billion and make major changes to Facebook and Instagram over claims it endangered children with addictive social media platforms. We discuss why it capitulated and what it means for the entire social media industry. Then, Princeton computer science professor Arvind Narayanan returns to offer his thoughts on why banning data centers won’t slow down A.I. progress. And finally, it’s all hats on deck for the final HatGPT.
Guests:
Arvind Narayanan, professor of computer science at Princeton, and co-author of the “A.I. as Normal Technology” newsletter.
Additional Reading:
Meta to Pay Up to $17.1 Billion in Landmark Settlement Over Social Media Addiction Claims
Mark Zuckerberg Wants to Make Sure His Competitors Share His Pain
Arvind Narayanan’s Post About A.I. Data Centers
Apple Vision Pro in Surgery: A New Paper
Rockstar Finally Breaks Its Silence Over The GTA 6 Leaks, Calls Them ‘Heartbreaking’
Amazon Delivery Drone Dumps Texas Woman’s Parcel Straight Into Her Swimming Pool
What if Your Texts Traveled as Slowly as a Carrier Pigeon?
A.I. Agents Are Turning Founders Into Insomniacs
What is a ‘Meat Proxy’? The New Term For Coworkers Who Blindly Share A.I. Output
Chinese Robot Tiangong Clocks Sub-9 second 100 Metres in Beijing
Inside OpenAI’s Reboot
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
OpenAI’s Two-Week Pause + Jill Lepore on the Threat of the “Artificial State” + Train of Thought
2026/08/21
This week, we learned that OpenAI had stopped training new artificial intelligence models while the company reviewed its security measures. Will this encourage other labs to hit the brakes too?
Then, the historian Jill Lepore joins to discuss her new book about the artificial state — or, as she describes it, “the rule of humans by machines manufactured by corporations.”
And finally, why is Google buying up the data of the defunct Spirit Airlines? It’s time for our new segment “Train of Thought.”
Guests:
Jill Lepore, professor of history and law at Harvard University, staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book “The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State.”
Additional Reading:
OpenAI Slows Model Training to Bolster Security After Hugging Face Hack
A Government for the People, but Not by People
Google to Buy Spirit Airlines Business Data for $10 Million
A.I.’s New Training Data: Your Old Work Slacks and Emails
We Tracked a Shipment of Rare Books. It Ended at an Amazon A.I. Training Facility.
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Zuckerberg’s Anti-Doom Fantasy + Finally an A.I. Detector That Works + A.I. Math
2026/08/14
This week we’re talking about Mark Zuckerberg’s latest essay, “The Future Is for Everyone,” which outlines his positive new vision about the potential of A.I. But do we think it’s credible? Then, Pangram’s chief executive, Max Spero, joins us to talk about the breakout success of his A.I. slop detector. And finally, it’s time for our new segment all about math — we’re Running the Numbers.
Guests:
Max Spero, chief executive of Pangram
Additional Reading:
The Future Is for Everyone
Meta Unveils an Open Version of Its Most Powerful A.I. Model
Meta Ordered to Pay $567 Million in New Mexico Child Safety Case
Sick of A.I.-Generated Content? The ‘Slop Janitor’ Is Here to Help.
Learning more about Claude's mathematical capabilities
Airtable Acquisition Is ‘Kick in the Gut’ for Software Unicorns and Their Backers
The Dating Scene That’s Suddenly Dominated by Chip Nerds
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
The White House’s Secret A.I. Rules + The State of Model Alignment With METR’s Chris Painter + The Final Hot Mess Express
2026/08/07
This week, the White House announced a new framework for regulating A.I. models, but it isn’t letting the public read it. We break down what we know about the rules and what the implications are for the industry and A.I. safety as a whole.
Then, yet another report details new incidents in which A.I. agents have gone rogue. Chris Painter, the president of METR, an independent A.I. evaluation organization, joins to discuss how we get these models under control.
And finally, we're hopping on the Hot Mess Express for the very last time. We’ll rate the craziest tech headlines from the week, including Google’s announcement that Demis Hassabis is stepping into a new role.
Guests:
Chris Painter, president of METR.
Additional Reading:
White House Readies A.I. Framework to Review Security Risks
Inside Trump's AI framework
How Do You Measure an A.I. Boom?
METR’s Frontier Risk Report
Google Shakes Up A.I. Leadership
Did an A.I. Music App Just Snitch on the Song of the Summer?
This AI Assistant Wants to Make Up for Your Boyfriend’s Incompetence
Google Earth’s AI deepfake tool only lasted one day
US government map of Africa mislabels every country at global conference
Contractor who built Colossus and Colossus II says Elon Musk owes him colossal amount of money
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Open Model Wars + Claire Stapleton's Dishy Google Memoir + Substack's Slop Fight
2026/07/31
This week, we break down the arguments about open-weight models unfolding in Silicon Valley right now. Nvidia released an open letter signed by over 230 companies opposing “premature restrictions,” but will the Trump administration listen?
Then, we’re joined by the author Claire Stapleton to discuss her new book about what she learned while leading employee activism inside Google.
And finally, can Substack stop the slop? We’ll talk about the platform’s new A.I. detector.
Guests:
Claire Stapleton, author of “Don’t Be Evil: Bad Bosses, Fake Promises, and My Escape from Big Tech.”
Additional Reading:
Nvidia Forms Alliance to Back Open-Source A.I. Amid Debate Over Safety
What Is Open-Weights A.I.?
Mark Zuckerberg Blasts Centralization of A.I. Power
The Voice of Google
Against Claudefishing
We want to hear from you. Email us at [email protected]. Find “Hard Fork” on YouTube and TikTok.
Subscribe today at nytimes.com/podcasts or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.
Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.
Podcast reviews
Read Hard Fork podcast reviews
KarmaPolice 2026/10/26
Hard Fork post-Newton/Roose
I really wanted to continue to loving Hard Fork after the departure of former hosts Kevin Roose and Casey Newton. Unfortunately, I’m not sure the powe...
Blizzard1s2d 2026/10/26
These dudes have been so full of themselves
Completely bought and paid for by the pro-tech billionaires. No original thoughts, no independence. Roose even admitted he has no theory of mind, wh...
Brother Velvet 2026/10/23
Hard Fork 2.0
Sorry, but are you just gonna make this entire show about making fun of Billy Evans and talking about Elizabeth Holmes forever.? And why are you guys ...
RXL837 2026/10/23
NYT should have retired the show
It would have been hard for anyone to follow the old hosts, but I really was hoping for some good new hosts so I could keep with Hard Fork and follow ...
LRou915 2026/10/21
Grammar police
I stumbled onto the Hard Fork podcast for the first time because of the Elizabeth Holmes episode, but the recurring grammatical errors by one of the f...
jack.grim 2026/10/19
Not the same podcast, but still entertaining!
I don’t think Hard Fork will ever be the same show, but honestly it’s still the same funny tech podcast. Love the host, Max, and how we’re trying new ...
NomicAtomy 2026/10/16
Meh
I’m a holdover from when Kevin and Casey hosted this show.
The last episode with the new hosts was literally a movie promotion. It was an hour of pr...
KNL1979 2026/10/16
Time to Retire the Show
This was one of my favorite podcasts each week but since Kevin and Casey left, it sounds like just another NY Times news podcast. That’s fine for the ...
Normwood 2026/10/16
The old show was exponentially better.
Sorry, but this is not the same Hardfork. Not even close. You should have just let it die rather than this milk toast version.
Steve-xyz 2026/10/14
Not the same
The new podcast is so dull. I can’t wait for Machine Gods to launch. It’s partly delivery but there may be a gap in expertise. I’ll persevere for anot...
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