Advertise on podcast: The Dishcast with Andrew Sullivan

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Jeff is a lawyer and a contributing opinion writer for the NYT, after a long run at The New Yorker and CNN. He has written many bestselling books, including True Crimes and Misdemeanors, The Oath, The Nine, and Too Close to Call. He appeared on the Dishcast in 2024 to talk lawfare, and in this episode we discuss his latest book, The Pardon: The Politics of Presidential Mercy. We recorded this episode a while back, and we’re posting it this week after Trump promised mass pardons for White House staffers before he leaves office. For two clips of our convo — on Biden’s corrupt pardons, and Trump’s obscene pardons — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: how pardons can be a beautiful act of mercy; the varying powers among the states; Lincoln’s amnesty for Confederate soldiers but not leaders; Andrew Johnson’s pardon for Jefferson Davis; Johnson’s impeachment; the thousand pardons of Rutherford B Hayes; Ford pardoning Nixon; Jimmy Carter pardoning resisters to the Vietnam War; the Willie Horton furlough and ad; HW’s pardons for Iran-Contra; Clinton pardoning his own brother and Marc Rich; Dubya’s refusal to pardon Scooter Libby against Cheney’s wishes; Dubya advising Obama to have a set protocol; Trump pardoning crooks like Charles Kushner and Paul Manafort who could have testified against him; the blanket pardon of January 6ers; Kim Kardashian’s role in Trump’s pardons; the ICE killings in Minneapolis; and the need for presidents with some basic virtue. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Greg Lukianoff on free-speech fights, Jerusalem Demsas on the state of the left, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” HW Brands on the life of George Washington, Ben Rhodes on foreign policy, and Tom Junod on his dad and masculinity. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Derek Thompson is a long-time writer at The Atlantic. His books include Hit Makers, On Work, and Abundance, which he co-wrote with Ezra Klein. Derek also has an excellent substack and hosts a podcast called “Plain English.” This episode was recorded on March 17. For two clips — on the impact of Abundance, and the difference between being alone and anti-social — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up near DC; theater his first love; the two of us trading stories of stage acting; pursuing journalism after 9/11; how writing has evolved in the 21st century; conspiracy theories online; AI creating doubt; strategizing the Abundance book; Virtually Normal; books as totems; blue vs red city governance; housing deregulation; “procedural fetish” vs Trumpian chaos; government spurring innovation; Derek’s piece “The Anti-Social Century”; OnlyFans; looking at smartphones in a gay bar; Kierkegaard; Camus; tradition as a ballast; meaning through limits; fatherhood; Hegseth reveling in dominance; Nietzsche; the tribalism of early humans; wokeness and the Trump cult; liquid modernity; consumerism replacing meaning; the fertility crisis; the growing dominance of Orthodox Jews in Israel; and Oakeshott and infinite games of non-winning. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” HW Brands on the life of George Washington; Greg Lukianoff on free speech, and Tom Junod on his memoir and masculinity. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Tom is a historian, translator, and podcaster. He hosts with Dominic Sandbrook the most downloaded history pod in the world, “The Rest Is History.” He’s the author of many books, including the two we discussed this week: Rubicon: The Triumph and Tragedy of the Roman Republic, and Dominion: How the Christian Revolution Remade the World. Those two erudite, beautifully written books made a huge impact on me. For two clips of our convo — on the paradoxical power of Christ’s crucifixion, and the Christian roots of “secular” — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in Oxford and near Stonehenge; dinosaurs his first passion; how the past is more interesting than the present; Pontius Pilate; Cato; Caesar in Gaul and conquering Rome; Hegseth reveling in death; the war prayer at the Resolute Desk; Trump’s pre-Christian values; Socrates; Paul the Apostle; turning the other cheek; agape; Christ’s silence and withdrawal; logos; the Gospels; the Gnostic Gospels; the Book of Revelation; Exodus and Israel; martyred Christians in the arena; Augustine; the emergence of Islam; the Koran as the literal word of Allah; the Crusades; Pope Gregory VII making the Church sovereign; Machiavelli and mastering the secular; the Reformation; toppling idols; Nietzsche and the death of God; Marx; the Sexual Revolution; #MeToo; Dawkins and the New Atheists; the religion of wokeness; racism as a collective sin; Michael Pollan and “All You Need Is Love”; Fleming Rutledge’s The Crucifixion; the awe of cathedrals; and the new wave of cultural Christianity. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” Greg Lukianoff on free speech, and Tom Junod on his memoir and masculinity. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Jonah is a journalist, author, and podcaster. He spent two decades at National Review before joining The Dispatch, where he writes the G-File and hosts the Remnant podcast. He’s also a columnist for the LA Times, a commentator for CNN, and a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. He’s the author of Liberal Fascism, The Tyranny of Clichés, and Suicide of the West. For two clips of our convo — on how Oakeshott is needed more than ever, and how dogs make us more human — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up on the UWS; his legendary mom and her role in the Lewinsky saga; his dad who discovered Dilbert; joining the first co-ed class at Goucher; Clinton’s poor character; the Drudge Report; the Starr report; Mike Kinsley starting Slate; launching the G-File as one of the first blogs; the heterogeneity of The Corner; Mickey Kaus; Breitbart; the power of the hyperlink; Twitter killing the blogosphere; why democratizing the parties was a big mistake; the Iraq War; Liberal Fascism and the administrative state; FDR; Vought and DOGE and performative vandalism; the Biden and Boris betrayals on immigration; oikophobia; the Israel lobby and the gay lobby; Netanyahu’s f**k-yous to Obama; the war for oil in Venezuela; Hegseth’s “no quarter”; Trump’s response to Mueller’s death; weaponizing the DOJ; how the Trump and Obama cults differed; Saul Alinsky; David French and free speech; the debt crisis; the religious right; Bill Bennett’s hypocrisy; and how Trump talks about dogs. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” Greg Lukianoff on free speech, and Tom Junod on his memoir and masculinity. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Matt is an author, pollster, campaigner, and policy advisor. He recently ran for Parliament as a Reform candidate and came in second. He’s also a presenter at GB News and a writer on Substack. He’s the author of many books, including National Populism and Values, Voice and Virtue, and his new book is Suicide of a Nation: Immigration, Islam, Identity. For two clips of our convo — on the flood of non-white migrants to the UK, and how accusations of racism shape the migration debate — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: born in Hertfordshire to working-class parents who divorced young and worked for the NHS; addiction in the family; his terrible time at an all-boys school; the first in his family to go to college; Burke and Oakeshott; a semester abroad in downtown Detroit; the losers of globalization; being a conservative in academia; thehounding of Kathleen Stock; Douglas Murray; Charles Murray; the falling popularity of liberal democracy; David Cameron; the migration crisis; Brexit; the Red Wall swinging to the right; Nigel Farage and Euroskepticism; plunging fertility rates; Roger Scruton; Lasch and Burnham; the betrayal of Boris on migration; the rapid influx of Muslims to the UK; assimilation in the US; the disappearance of a shared national memory; the illiberalism of Islamic Brits; same-sex marriage; wokeness; anti-speech laws in the UK; the Iraq War; and the new war in Iran. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” and Tom Junod on his memoir and masculinity. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Eli is a journalist and an old friend. He’s a former senior national security correspondent for The Daily Beast and Newsweek, and a former columnist for the Bloomberg View. He’s now a reporter for The Free Press, a contributing editor at Commentary Magazine, and the host of his own podcast, Breaking History. He’s one of the most dogged defenders of Israel in America. Who better to slug it out with? For two clips of our convo — on the double standard of US aid to Israel and NATO, and escalation of settlements in the West Bank — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: Eli’s speech at his bar mitzvah on Jewish views of nuclear proliferation; his Zionist sleepaway camp; the Iran-Contra affair; the Oslo Accords; the Second Intifada; Saddam and WMDs; mugged by the reality of the Iraq War; the rise of Hamas in Gaza; the Obama-Netanyahu feud; the Iran nuclear deal; Schumer’s commitment to Israel; the Golden Dome; Israel’s contributions to the US; the horrors of October 7; the Judeo-fascists in Bibi’s cabinet; US bombs sent to the IDF for Gaza; the 12-Day War that “obliterated” Iran’s nuke facilities; the mass slaughter of protesters in Iran; the shifting reasons for the current war; the lack of any public debate or Congressional approval; the farce of Hegseth; Witkoff and Kushner’s “negotiations” with Iran; international law; assassinating the leadership in Iran; Lindsey Graham’s fanaticism; Tucker Carlson; the dead schoolgirls; oil prices; and evangelical support for Israel. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Matt Goodwin on the political earthquake in the UK, Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, and Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism.” As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Paige is a scientist and writer. She’s a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, where she directs the Developmental Behavior Genetics lab and serves as Director of Clinical Training. She’s the author of The Genetic Lottery: Why DNA Matters for Social Equality, and her new book is Original Sin: On the Genetics of Vice, The Problem of Blame, and The Future of Forgiveness. It’s about the eternal question of what sin is; and where it comes from; and whether our guilt is justified. We had a great chat. For two clips of our convo — on the proclivity for violence in our genes, and even religion! — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in a conservative religious household outside Memphis; not knowing any non-evangelicals until college; original sin and Augustine; Aquinas; Calvinism; genetics as predestination; how humans evolved to be more cooperative and non-violent than apes; the genes of violent criminals; the overwhelming disparity of men versus women in prison; accountability vs punishment; free will; God in the gaps; the genetic predisposition for faith; Tourette’s at BAFTA; addiction; how drugs change your brain; AA as Christianity with the theology removed; mental illness; my bipolar and borderline mother; Pascal; philosopher Hanna Pickard; poet Carl Phillips; how genes affect horniness; testosterone and sex; the documentary Seven Up; how identical twins become more similar in middle age; and my initial reactions to the war in Iran. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Matt Goodwin on the political earthquake in the UK, Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy in a liberal democracy, and Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism.” As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Michael is quite simply one of the best nonfiction writers out the planet: a real role model. He’s been a contributing writer to the New York Times Magazine since 1987, and he’s the bestselling author of many books, including How to Change Your Mind — which I reviewed in 2018 — and its sequel, This Is Your Mind on Plants, which we discussed on the Dishcast in 2021. This week we covered his new book, A World Appears: A Journey Into Consciousness. For two clips of our convo — on the magic of spontaneous thoughts, and the consciousness of kids — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: toasters and other things that don’t have consciousness; Thomas Nagel’s bat; panpsychism; Francis Crick trying to solve consciousness; the global neuronal workspace theory; how brains are not like computers; AI and consciousness; Proust; James Joyce; Wordsworth and the Romantics; William James and stream of consciousness; Lucy Ellmann’s Ducks, Newburyport; words on the tip of your tongue; phenomenology; letting your mind wander; Addison’s Walk at Oxford; how smartphones distract from thinking; Trump taking up our headspace; Oakeshott and “the deadliness of doing”; AI and UBI; Allison Gopnik’s lantern vs spotlight consciousness; how a child’s brain resembles an adult’s on psychedelics; ego death; the default mode network; meditation; the flow state of deep reading; the benefits of boredom; habit and ritual; my 10-day silent meditation retreat; the sentience of plants; Buddhism and Matthieu Ricard; the soul; the film Into Great Silence; and the disenchantment of the Enlightenment. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Matt Goodwin on the earthquake in UK politics, Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” Tom Junod on his memoir and masculinity, and Kathryn Paige Harden on the genetics of vice and virtue. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Sally is a journalist, columnist, TV commentator, author, wife to Ben Bradlee, and legendary DC hostess. Who better to talk to about the implosion of The Washington Post? She also founded the Post’s religion website, “On Faith.” She’s the author of six books, including the spiritual memoir Finding Magic, and We’re Going to Make You a Star — about her time at “CBS Morning News.” Her latest novel is Silent Retreat, and she’s now working on a memoir called Never Invite Sally Quinn. Her energy at 84 is, well, humbling. We had a blast. For two clips of our convo — on Sally’s initial impression of Bezos, and the time Bill Clinton called her the b-word — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: born in Savannah, GA, and learning voodoo as a kid; moving as an Army brat; her general dad who captured Göring and helped create the CIA; at Smith College wanting to be an actress; rebelling against Vietnam and the wishes of her dad by marrying Bradlee; the Georgetown party circuit and how it’s grown more partisan; throwing a pajama party for Goldwater; dating Hunter S. Thompson; Watergate and Woodstein; the Grahams; Tom Stoppard; Hitchens; Howell Raines; Newt’s revolution; Bill’s womanizing; Hillary defending her cheater; the Monica frenzy; Obama rising on merit; Barack the introvert; Jerry Brown; the catastrophe of Biden running in 2024; Dr. Jill’s complicity and cruelty; Jon Meacham; Maureen Dowd; David Ignatius; Bradlee’s dementia; declining trust in journalism; Bezos nixing the Harris endorsement; his life with Lauren Sanchez; sucking up to Trump; the Will Lewis debacle; Sally’s spiritual life; silent retreats; Zen meditation; the humor in Buddhism; the denial of death; debating the the Golden Rule; children in Gaza; and the need more than ever for in-person gatherings. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Michael Pollan on consciousness, Derek Thompson on abundance, Matt Goodwin on the UK political earthquake, Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” and Kathryn Paige Harden on the genetics of vice. As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected]. A listener writes: Thanks for all these good episodes. Is Vivek still planning to be a guest soon? I have been looking forward to that episode. He got cold feet. Too bad. On the other hand, I tend to avoid active politicians. Because they’re rarely as candid as I’d like a guest to be. Oh well. A fan of last week’s pod who lives near Atlanta writes, “The longtime Dishheads on the Mableton cul-de-sac definitely approve of your interview with homegrown talent Zaid Jilani”: I agree with his description of Mableton as a bit like the United Nations; I see that diversity in our grocery stores and local restaurants. He mentioned how he was often the only Pakistani and thus perceived as a nonthreatening minority. It makes me wonder how much the diversity mix affects how people perceive immigration? If a large group from one country arrives, does that seem more like an invasion? If a similar number arrives but from a wide range of locations, does that seem more like the normal American melting pot? After 30 years of living in Mableton, this may partly explain why I am not bothered by immigration in the way that you are, Andrew. I expect to see and hear all sorts of people wherever I go in my neighborhood. Today the teller at the bank spoke accented English. There are regular clerks at my grocery store who are immigrants. Our new HVAC was installed by immigrants. As an Atlanta suburb, there are many people descended from African slaves. European ancestry is merely one possibility off the long colorful menu around here. I think pace and numbers matter. A slower pace and fewer — with no massive homogenous populations arriving at once. And a new emphasis on Americanization over “multiculturalism”. From a listener who wants to “Make Democrats Great Again”: Great conversation with Zaid Jilani last week. I am very concerned that hardly any Democrats are being at all introspective, trying to figure out where they went wrong and how to become a party that can actually win elections — maybe even hearts and minds. They are only defined as anti-Trump, and their only hope is for Trump to go down in flames — which he very well might, but all they aspire to is winning as the least-worst party. The policy directions for reclaiming sanity and moderate voters are obvious (to me, at least). Here are my top three issues: 1. Affordability The longest lever to affect affordability is housing. Democrats have been complete failures in this regard, with strongholds like California and NYC being the least affordable places. When they talk about “affordable housing,” they only mean housing that is forced below market rate for the few poor people lucky enough to get it. They offer no solutions for the middle class or young people. The solution is obvious: build more. Plough through the various restrictions that are preventing housing from being built. There is no reason housing can’t be cheap, except for NIMBY politics. Scott Weiner in California has been doing great work on this. Health care is the second-longest affordability lever. Obamacare made some progress, but not nearly enough, especially in terms of keeping costs down. But I’m not sure we’re ready for another push on this; I say focus on housing. 2. Immigration Obviously there should be some immigration, and obviously we have structured our economy such that many jobs are only done by immigrants. But the Democrats’ policy of simply not enforcing immigration law is untenable, especially for a group asking to be put in charge of law enforcement. We need those migrant workers, so find a way for them be here legally. Not through amnesty, but through some sort of bureaucratic process: have the employers fill out a form; have the prospective worker fill out a form in some office in Mexico; have someone process the form; and give them a green card. This is simple stuff! And yes, it would be helpful to admit that open borders, sanctuary cities, and subverting the law were not good ideas. 3. Culture End wokeness. America is not a country consumed by white supremacy, and the people who voted for Trump are not racists. There are hardly any racists! And drop the other insanities, like the trans stuff. The message needs to be, “We are the Democrats and we want to help anybody from any state who needs help.” Hard to convince struggling white people in the South that you’re going to help them when you seem to despise them. Love your brother, for crying out loud. And naturally, today’s woke Democrats would be much more accepting of this message if it came from a racial minority candidate. Another wanted to hear more: I wish you had asked Zaid about Josh Shapiro. Also, when Zaid talked about affordability, he never mentioned housing — which is why there are so many ex-Californians in his home state of Georgia and elsewhere. “Build Baby Build” should be the slogan of the Democratic Party, rather than gaslighting Americans into believing housing prices will come down because we are getting rid of immigrants (Vance). Here’s a dissent: About 20:30 into your interview with Zaid Jilani, he said that the root of all the Abrahamic faiths is that the meek have rights. You replied that this applied more to Christianity and Islam than to Judaism. I say this neither rhetorically nor to admonish you, but how much do you know about Judaism? Your comment is completely mistaken. Just what do you think Judaism says about the meek? Another has examples: In Genesis, you find that all humans were created b’tzelem Elohim (in the image of God). Moreover, Jewish texts consistently frame care for the poor as a legal obligation and moral imperative, not mere charity. Every Jewish child learns that promoting economic justice is mandated. It is called tzedakah. This religious mandate has manifested itself in the real world. Jews have been disproportionately represented in social justice movements aimed at promoting human equality. It wasn’t an accident that two of three civil rights movement activists murdered in Neshoba County, Mississippi by the Ku Klux Klan were Jewish. Points taken. Big generalizations in a chat can be dumb. My quarrel may be semantic: the meek is not merely the weak. It’s about the quiet people, those easily trampled upon. Like many of Jesus’ innovations, it takes a Jewish idea further. Another listener on the Zaid pod: I wonder if you ever play the game of “which time would you like to go back to”? I do! And only half-jokingly, I often say 1994 in DC. Something about, for example, Christopher Hitchens on CSPAN in a dreary suit jacket discussing such *trivial* aspects of politics in a serious way. How perfect! When I listened to your episode with Zaid Jilani about how the left can win, it seemed dated to about this period in the early ‘90s. Ah yes, the Nineties. They were heady times and I think we all kinda realized it at the time. The economy was booming, crime was plummeting, Annie Leibovitz took my picture, and we had the luxury of an impeachment over a b*****b. Good times. On another episode, a listener says I have a “rose-colored view of President Obama”: In your conversation with Jason Willick, you said that Obama was a stickler for proper procedure and doing things the right way. I might instance, on the other side: * Evading the constitutional requirements on treaties in pursuit of the Iran deal (an evasion that the Republicans were stupid enough to go along with) * Encouraging the regulatory gambit of “sue and sett

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Zaid is a young center-left journalist (after the young center-right journo we had on last week, Jason Willick). Zaid worked as a reporter for The Intercept and as a reporter-blogger for ThinkProgress, United Republic, the Progressive Change Campaign Committee, and Alternet. He’s now on Substack at “The American Saga” — subscribe! For two clips of our convo — on what the Dems should do on immigration, and whether Ossoff and Buttigieg could be strong contenders for the presidency — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: his parents immigrating from Pakistan; born and raised outside Atlanta in Newt Gingrich country; growing up Muslim in the South; tithing and agape; starting a student magazine at UGA; Mamdani and affordability; higher taxes on the rich; universal childcare; Ossoff and “the Epstein class”; the Dems’ denialism over Kamala; identity politics killing the party; how Dems should respond to AI; data centers hiking energy bills; Waymo; Trump’s success at closing the border; asylum reform; the left crying wolf over racism; Stephen Miller the wolf; Eric Kaufmann’s Whiteshift; pushing left-racism on a racially tolerant public; Jasmine Crockett; Dem leaders cowed by activists; transqueer ideology; Bad Bunny; Israel and the Dems; foreign aid; Tom Massie; Ro Khanna; gerontocracy; Obama’s success in red states; rumors of Stacey Abrams being closeted; AOC; Warnock; Newsom’s left-wing baggage; the silo of Bluesky; Renee Good; and the indoctrination of kids on gender. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Sally Quinn on the WaPo and silent retreats, Michael Pollan on consciousness, Jeffrey Toobin on the pardon power, Derek Thompson on abundance, Matt Goodwin on the UK political earthquake, Jonah Goldberg on the state of conservatism, Tom Holland on the Christian roots of liberalism, Adrian Wooldridge on “the lost genius of liberalism,” Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Kathryn Paige Harden on the genetics of vice. An abundance of riches! And a lot of reading for yours truly! As always, please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Jason is a columnist at the Washington Post who writes about law, politics, and foreign policy. He used to be an editorial writer and assistant editorial features editor for the Wall Street Journal, and before that he was a staff writer and associate editor at The American Interest. For two clips of our convo — on whether SCOTUS has surrendered to Trump, and the failures of his own lawfare — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in liberal Palo Alto; raised by a doctor and a physics prof at Stanford; Fukuyama a formative prof and Walter Russell Mead a formative boss; conservatives mags that fell apart under Trump; the GOP primaries in 2016; Hillary’s denialism after her terrible run; Russiagate; Watergate; the politicization of DOJ; Trump suing the IRS; Comey and obstruction of justice; how Alvin Bragg and Jack Smith helped Trump; the January 6 pardons; the ICE paramilitary; the latest Epstein document dump; the power network around him, including “populist” Bannon; the SCOTUS immunity ruling; the delayed tariff ruling; Trump’s b******t “national emergencies” and the 1977 law; CECOT; Abrego Garcia and Ozturk; Biden and student loans; Jerome Powell and Lisa Cook; Gabbard in Fulton County; Thom Tillis vs Trump; the US vs NATO; Ukraine and Putin; Trump soft on China; bombing Iran and Nigeria; invading Venezuela; crypto corruption and the UAE chips deal; Jimmy Kimmel and the FCC; Ed Martin out; and Trump’s success at bullying institutions. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Zaid Jilani on the Dems, Derek Thompson on abundance, Matt Goodwin on the UK political earthquake, Kathryn Paige Harden on the genetics of vice, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Jon and I go way back to the early days of the marriage movement and before. He’s currently a senior fellow at Brookings and a contributor editor at The Atlantic. He’s written many landmark books, including Kindly Inquisitors, The Constitution of Knowledge (which we discussed on the pod in 2021), and Cross Purposes (which we covered last year). His new essay in The Atlantic, “Yes, It’s Fascism,” is a must-read. And this episode is, if you don’t mind me saying so, a must-listen. One of the best conversations I’ve yet had on the Dishcast. Jon is always lucid and fair and thereby chilling. For two clips of our convo — on the glorification of violence by Trump and his officials, and the cowardice of mainstream conservatives — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: Trump smashing norms; his vile indecency; his early rallies; reveling in war crimes; suing everyone; the “mean tweets” defense; cultural degeneracy in America; the need for party gatekeeping; blood-and-soil nationalism; Plato on tyrants; Stephen Miller’s “iron laws”; the Zelensky meeting and “having no cards”; the assassination attempt on Trump; the reprehensible Randy Fine; ICE using white nationalist anthems to recruit; anonymous masked agents; the Pretti and Good killings; the racial element of ICE roundups; the Somali fraud scandal; the over-politicization of DoJ; the two legal systems under the Nazis; Carl Schmitt; the blanket pardon for all Jan 6-ers; Vance meeting with AfD; Heritage Americans; birthright citizenship; Greenland; Venezuela; Christian nationalism; evangelical loyalty to Trump; his Board of Peace; the vandalism of DOGE; Vought’s evil genius; the East Wing demolition; violent threats against moderate Republicans; the woke playing right into Trump’s hands; and fears that he will manipulate the midterms. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Zaid Jilani on the Dems, Derek Thompson on abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Kevin spent 15 years as a writer and reporter for National Review, worked as a theater critic at The New Criterion, and had a long career in local newspapers. He’s currently the national correspondent at The Dispatch and a writer in residence at the Competitive Enterprise Institute. He’s the author of many books, including Big White Ghetto: Dead Broke, Stone-Cold Stupid, and High on Rage in the Dank Woolly Wilds of the “Real America.” An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the arc from the Tea Party to Trump, and now his Greenland travesty — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in Lubbock with working-class, adoptive parents; playing football for the worst 5A team in Texas and joking with Dubya about it; starting journalism as a teenager; Bill Buckley a big influence; working for newspapers in India; how neoliberalism lifted untold millions out of poverty; the prosperity of the ‘90s; Karl Rove and “deficits don’t matter”; quitting the GOP over Arlen Specter; joining NR in 2008; TARP and bailouts; covering the Tea Party rallies; the Constitution checking human nature; Pat Buchanan; Ross Perot; Rick Santorum; the demonization of Obama; the pathologies of working-class whites; Christian apologists of Trump; mass migration and multiculturalism; masked ICE agents; Trump and celebrity culture; the Nobel hissy fit over Greenland; the tariff insanity; the bond market; Bessent’s propaganda; right-wingers in Europe turning on Trump; Vance and Cruz bending the knee; Jan 6 and Mike Pence; MTG’s conversion; Musk’s accomplishments; Trump defunding science in higher ed; Rahm Emanuel; when Kevin was cancelled by The Atlantic; when both of us were vilified by Jeff Goldberg in a townhall; and taking Matt Stone to Bear Week in Ptown. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Jeffery Toobin on the pardon power, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, Derek Thompson on the Dems and abundance, Tiffany Jenkins on privacy, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Charlie is a journalist and podcaster. From 1993 to 2016, he hosted a conservative talk show on WTMJ in Milwaukee. He was also the editor of Right Wisconsin, the editor-in-chief of The Bulwark, and a commentator on MSNBC. He recently went fully independent with his own substack, “To the Contrary” — subscribe! The author of many books, the latest was 2017’s How the Right Lost Its Mind. An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the Trump admin’s soulless response to the ICE killings, and if the GOP is starting to turn on Trump — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: growing up in a contrarian liberal home; his dad a journalist prof who ran Eugene McCarthy’s 1968 campaign in Wisconsin; Charlie converting to Catholicism in college; TS Eliot’s influence on his faith; writing his first book based on his dad’s essay against academia; getting into talk radio in the early years; the Limbaugh effect; the MSM disdain over talk radio; my early campaign for marriage equality reaching Charlie’s show; the lost culture of healthy debate; Gingrich’s contempt for the opposition; Vince Foster; Bush discrediting conservatism; the demonization of Obama; the failure of GOP gatekeepers; both parties embracing mass migration; “The Flight 93 Election”; the groups controlling the Dems; Biden empowering Trump on immigration; the Fox News fallacy; the anti-Semite card with respect to Israel and the settlements; Gaza; the war in Ukraine; the ICE killing in Minneapolis; JD’s soulless presser; the indecency of Matt Walsh and Megyn Kelly; the threats to Greenland; the persecution of Jerome Powell; civil war rhetoric; the Caribbean boats and Maduro’s ouster; our Viking foreign policy; Cardinal Dolan embracing MAGA; Pope Leo replacing Dolan; tariffs as protection money; the abuse of the pardon; ICE recruitment ramping up; and how dogs are the best people. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Kevin Williamson on the devolution of the GOP, Jeffery Toobin on the pardon power, Jason Willick on trade and conservatism, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].

This is a free preview of a paid episode. To hear more, visit andrewsullivan.substack.com Claire is an American novelist, essayist, and journalist living in Paris. She’s the editor-in-chief of The Cosmopolitan Globalist — subscribe! — and the author of many books, including There Is No Alternative: Why Margaret Thatcher Matters, and the novel Loose Lips. An auto-transcript is available above (just click “Transcript” while logged into Substack). For two clips of our convo — on the US returning to the Monroe Doctrine via Venezuela, and if Rubio is gunning for Cuba next — head to our YouTube page. Other topics: Claire’s grandpa fleeing Nazi Germany and joining the French Foreign Legion; the new movie Nuremberg; her mom a world-class cellist; Claire raised in California; seeing me debate at Oxford; my 1988 hatchet job on Ben Sherwood; our mutual love of Thatcher and how she wielded femininity; getting the Iraq War wrong; Trump increasingly looking senile; Stephen Miller’s fascism; Michael Anton and the new National Security Strategy; debating the war in Ukraine; Russia’s threats to Europe; NATO and defense spending; the growing isolationism of Americans; conspiracy theories; AI slop; Trump’s threats over Greenland; resource extraction; the Taiwan question; nuclear proliferation and A House of Dynamite; the irrelevant Congress; the poison of the identitarian left; Tom Holland’s Dominion; Keir Starmer less popular than Prince Andrew; migrants in France; the last gasps of Macron; AfD and Reform; the tariff war; and the new McCarthyism. Browse the Dishcast archive for an episode you might enjoy. Coming up: Charlie Sykes on the GOP ditching conservatism, Jason Willick on trade, Vivek Ramaswamy on the right’s future, and Michael Pollan on consciousness. Please send any guest recs, dissents, and other comments to [email protected].