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On the podcast we talk with Tanmay and Jack about how earned media can drive paid performance, building features that make for good tweets, and why stripping out your onboarding quiz might beat optimizing it. Top Takeaways: 📊Pricing should match how users think — not how AI worksOne of the biggest wins came from simplifying pricing. For ElevenReader, selling listening time instead of tokens or credits dramatically improved clarity and conversion. Abstracting away AI complexity for consumers is not dumbing things down — it’s good product sense. 🏎️Small, autonomous “pods” enable speed to become the moat Instead of one massive org, ElevenLabs operates like 10–12 startups inside the company. Small teams with full ownership can ship fast, iterate relentlessly, and make real product decisions without waiting on heavy processes — a critical edge in fast-moving AI markets. 💸Earned media compounds — and fuels paid performance ElevenLabs treats launches as compounding assets. Each launch earns attention, which boosts branded search, improves paid efficiency, and makes future launches stronger. Growth isn’t just ads vs. organic — it’s a flywheel where story, brand, and performance reinforce each other. 🕊️Start launches with the “tweet thread,” not the featureBefore building launch assets, teams write the Twitter/X thread first. If a feature can’t be explained clearly and compellingly in a short narrative, it’s a red flag. This keeps teams focused on real user value instead of shipping “flashy but hollow” features. 🌐 Consumer apps are a strategic advantage for platform companiesElevenLabs doesn’t see consumer apps as competing with its API customers — they’re a force multiplier. Being their own best customer helps them build better APIs, understand real user needs, and strengthen brand affinity across creators, consumers, and developers. About Tanmay Jain & Jack McDermott 🚀 Mobile Growth Lead, ElevenLabs 📱 Tanmay Jain leads mobile growth for the core ElevenLabs app, focused on translating ElevenLabs’ powerful web + API capabilities into a mobile-native experience that’s simple, fast, and creative-first. He brings a founder mindset from previous roles (including Canva), and shares how ElevenLabs ships through small, autonomous pods — moving quickly, running experiments (like pricing + paywalls), and holding teams accountable to what actually improves the user experience. 👋 LinkedIn 🚀 Mobile Growth Lead, ElevenReader 📱 Jack McDermott leads mobile growth for ElevenReader, ElevenLabs’ consumer app that turns PDFs, articles, and books into lifelike audio — powered by a massive catalog of high-quality voices. He breaks down how ElevenLabs uses earned media to amplify paid performance, why launches start with the “tweet thread” narrative, and how simplifying pricing (selling listening time instead of tokens) can dramatically improve consumer conversion. 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:[0:00] Why consumers won’t pay in “tokens” — they pay in outcomes [2:13] The case for building consumer apps and an API (without competing with customers) [4:10] ElevenLabs’ operating system: 10–12 “speedboat” pods shipping in parallel [7:20] The Canva spin-out lesson: award-winning product ≠ distribution or retention [12:07] Monetization that matches intent: “hours of listening” vs creator credits [13:30] Two growth modes at once: compounding earned-media launches + steady paid UA [16:27] Why earned media makes paid cheaper (branded search + trust lift) [19:30] The launch playbook: write the Twitter thread first → turn it into a video [32:20] “Speed is the moat” — and how they avoid shipping gimmicks [36:57] Don’t copy Spotify Wrapped — find your product’s natural shareable moment [43:31] ElevenReader’s “aha”: bring your own PDF/ebook + pick a voice worth sharing [56:58] Biggest fail: over-optimizing onboarding instead of testing the “strip it back” base case

On the podcast, I talk with Cem about the premium trap many apps fall into, why free trials work even for freemium products, and how ‘try for $0.00’ actually outperforms ‘try for free’. Top Takeaways: 💡 Protect the free moat — always Short-term revenue tricks like paywalling free features make metrics spike — then stall. Sustainable freemium growth depends on preserving free value. It’s not just ethical; it’s strategic. Pulling back too much invites competitors to offer what you took away, weakening both your brand and your growth loop. 🧪 A/B test relentlessly — but know when to lead with intuition Testing is essential, but not infallible. With 400+ experiments running at once, you’ll often see trade-offs between revenue and user experience. The art of product management is knowing when to ignore short-term data and make the long-term call that preserves user trust and helps achieve strategic goals. 🔁 Freemium is a growth engine, not a trade-off Your free users aren’t freeloaders — they’re your marketing engine. When you improve the free experience, you strengthen organic growth through word of mouth. Growth slows when you nickel-and-dime; it compounds when you delight. 💰 Monetize with empathy, not extraction Introducing monetization requires a cultural shift. The key is measuring everything — retention, reviews, complaints per DAU — and optimizing for user experience, not just ARPU. Test cautiously, communicate transparently, and say no to anything that erodes trust. 🧠 Build for everyone, not a persona In large-scale apps, personas can be counterproductive. People learn, play, and engage for wildly different reasons. Designing for inclusivity and broad appeal helps scale from millions to billions of users without alienating key segments. 💡 Strategic and Creative Use of Ads Ads at Duolingo were introduced carefully with the goal of balancing monetization with a positive user experience. The focus is on surfacing ads at non-intrusive moments, such as after completing a lesson, and on carefully controlling ad content. Duolingo even partners with advertisers to integrate elements of Duolingo branding into third-party ads.  About Cem Kansu: 🚀Chief Product Officer at Duolingo 📱 Cem Kansu is the former VP of Product at Duolingo, where he led the company’s monetization strategy, introducing ads and subscriptions that turned Duolingo into a sustainable business. With deep expertise in product development and user experience, he helped grow subscriptions to over 80% of revenue, while keeping the core product free and mission-driven. 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQ Episode Highlights:[0:00] Cem discusses balancing profitability with long-term goals [0:36] Duolingo’s first monetization strategy: ads [2:02] The pivot from crowdsourcing translations to new monetization models [3:49] Streak repair as Duolingo’s first in-app purchase experiment [5:43] Shifting company culture to embrace monetization [7:20] The influence of investors on Duolingo’s monetization [8:00] Introducing ads without harming user experience [10:31] Handling user complaints and data-driven adjustments [12:07] Ensuring ad quality through strict control [13:53] Direct ad partnerships to improve user experience [16:30] Ads vs subscription: monetization strategy decision [18:43] The impact of free trials on subscription growth [20:22] Evolution of Duolingo’s subscription offerings [22:39] Adding features like offline learning and ad-free experiences [24:22] Pivoting from separate apps to integrating topics in one [26:43] Overcoming design challenges to fit new topics [28:55] Duolingo’s competition with other screen time apps [32:00] Leveraging AI to enhance the language learning experience [35:18] The role of AI in Duolingo’s growth [37:32] Balancing free vs paid features for growth [40:24] Decisions on adding/removing premium features [43:35] Lessons from the failed human tutor feature [45:10] Challenges in scaling a large product like Duolingo [47:12] Long-term growth focus and user base expansion [49:30] Design, testing, and iteration at Duolingo [54:10] Ongoing improvements in learning efficacy and retention [57:15] Duolingo’s future plans and expansion goals

On the podcast, I talk with Jeff about Tinder's $50 million paywall win. Why now is such a great time to build apps, and how hard paywalls can mislead you about product-market fit.Top Takeaways: 💡 Focus on Product-Market Fit First Before jumping into monetization, ensure your product truly resonates with users. Building a product that solves a real problem and captures genuine interest is the foundation for sustainable growth. Once you achieve product-market fit, monetization becomes a natural extension. 🛠 Monetization Strategies Are Evolving Founders are being pushed to monetize early, but the key is to test different models and find what works for your user base. Experimenting with subscription tiers and paywalls can unlock new revenue streams while preserving a great user experience. This flexibility is crucial in today’s competitive app landscape. 🚀 Experimentation is the Key to Success The most successful apps are built through continuous experimentation and iteration. Constantly testing new ideas—whether in pricing, features, or user engagement tactics—helps you learn and adapt quickly. Fail fast, adjust, and keep pushing forward. 📊 Data-Driven Decisions Over Gut Instincts Rely on data to make smarter decisions, especially when it comes to monetization and growth strategies. Properly instrumenting your app and analyzing user behavior gives you the insights needed to refine your approach. Data-driven decisions remove the guesswork and lead to more reliable outcomes. 💬 User Feedback Drives Innovation Your users are the best source of inspiration. Listening to their feedback and adjusting your app based on real-world experience will improve your product and increase retention. The more connected you are to your community, the more likely your app will evolve in the right direction. 🔑 The Importance of Sustainable Growth Building a successful app requires more than just an initial win. To scale sustainably, it’s essential to focus on long-term user value and avoid over-monetizing too early. By balancing user experience with growth strategies, you can achieve steady, lasting success. About Jeff Morris: 🚀 Founder and General Partner at Chapter One. 📱 Jeff Morris is the former VP of Product at Tinder, where he played a key role in driving the app’s revenue and user growth. As a venture capitalist, Jeff invests in early-stage companies developing products that resonate deeply with users. His expertise spans product development, monetization strategies, and scaling businesses in competitive markets. 👋 LinkedIn 👋 Follow Jeff Morris on X - @jmj Jeff’s “controversial” X post🌎 The New Internet  Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:[0:00] Jeff Morris’ background and expertise at Tinder[2:20] Monetization vs. product building: A founder’s shift in focus[4:53] Celebrating early revenue: Real or just hype?[6:08] Freemium model: Boosting user engagement and retention[9:01] Monetization strategies across app categories[11:51] The venture landscape in 2025: Challenges & opportunities[13:05] Why it’s still a great time to build mobile apps[14:48] Creating a sustainable subscription model[17:27] Early-stage AI startups: New monetization opportunities[19:20] Tinder’s journey with pricing and packaging experiments[22:02] The success of Tinder’s three-tier subscription model[24:41] Balancing user experience with monetization[26:45] The role of testing and iteration in revenue decisions[29:40] Why revenue optimization needs constant attention[31:53] The impact of paywall features on conversion[33:54] The power of design in driving revenue and engagement[36:21] The future of mobile and AI-native apps[39:11] Scaling a mobile app in 2025: Key lessons for founders[42:45] How funding partners shape your product vision[44:21] The role of feedback loops in creative growth[47:30] What Jeff would have done differently at Tinder[50:11] Key takeaways from building and scaling a high-growth product[54:45] User-centric design: Why monetization should never come first

On the podcast, I talk with Alper about the competitive advantage of ignoring (some) best practices, the risk of drawing false conclusions when researching competitor ads, and why poor metrics are just facts until proven problematic. Top Takeaways: 📊 Challenge Best Practices Test what works for your app and market, even if it goes against common advice. Adapt best practices to your data and current stage. 💡 Facts vs. Problems Low trial conversions aren’t always a problem—sometimes they’re just a fact of your setup. Only treat them as a problem after you’ve tested and ruled out other factors. 🎯 Quality Over Quantity in Creative Testing It’s not about testing hundreds of creatives—it’s about testing fewer, but with stronger hypotheses. Focus on creative iterations that drive high success rates, not just metrics. ⚖️ Strategic Control of Spend Set guardrails and adjust bids based on performance. Test spend limits, but always maintain control over your budget and its allocation. 💬 Be Inspired Learn from competitors, but don’t mimic their exact strategies. Customize based on your own data and target audience. 🔍 Instrument Your Data RightAccurate data is key. Whether it’s MMP, in-app analytics, or creative performance, ensure you interpret results accurately to drive better decisions and scale effectively. About Alper Taner: 🚀 Head of Performance Marketing at a stealth-mode app studio. 📱 With over 10 years in mobile growth, Alper drives user acquisition and marketing tech strategies, managing 8-figure budgets. He’s known for challenging conventional marketing practices and leveraging data to fuel growth. 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:  [0:00] Introduction to Alper Taner and his mobile growth expertise [1:39] Why challenging best practices and testing your own data is crucial [5:04] Poor metrics are facts, not problems [8:10] Creative testing: Focus on quality and strong hypotheses, not just quantity [12:00] Set spend guardrails and control budget allocation for better results [15:30] Learn from competitors, but don’t copy their strategies blindly [19:10] Accurate data is key: instrument it right for smarter decisions [22:18] Small event mapping changes can lead to significant performance boosts [27:00] Don’t shy away from unconventional strategies [32:45] Iteration is key for creative optimization [37:20] Manage budget thresholds in creative testing to avoid overspending [41:00] Understand platform algorithms and guide them to work for you [46:00] Use guardrails and budget caps to control spend while optimizing performance [49:50] Balance risk and experimentation with data-backed decision-making [54:05] Retention and user behavior drive long-term growth [58:00] Key lessons from creative testing: Adjust based on results [1:00:30] Mixing creativity with data is the key to optimized user acquisition

On the podcast, I talk with Greg about knowing when to pivot, why most consumer apps shouldn't raise VC, and why making free trials optional outperformed making them the default. Top Takeaways: 📉 Know When to Pivot Wrangle struggled because it wasn’t solving a real problem. Burner succeeded because it met a clear need. Don’t be afraid to pivot when the product isn’t working. 💭Most Consumer Apps Don’t Need VC Venture capital can be a blessing but also a curse. If you attract investment that doesn’t line up with your product vision or culture, the cash injection can turn out to be a costly mistake. Building a business that pays for itself is a better fit for most founders.   🔑 Focus on Retention  Success is about keeping users, not just acquiring them. Burner’s ability to retain users, even short-term ones, proved its value. If users keep coming back, you’ve found something meaningful. 🛠 Trials, Errors, WinsTesting was crucial to Burner’s growth. Every experiment was a learning opportunity. Don’t guess—test continuously, especially pricing, to find what drives retention and revenue. 🎯 Small Changes, Big Results Minor tweaks, like switching to a free trial, led to significant growth. Optimize for retention with quick, simple changes. Even minor adjustments can have a substantial impact on results. About Greg Cohn:  🛫 Founder and CEO of Ad Hoc Labs 📱 Greg Cohn is the founder of Burner, the leading mobile app for managing personal privacy through disposable phone numbers. With a passion for solving real-world problems, Greg transitioned from an early startup failure to building a successful business that prioritizes user privacy, simplicity, and seamless functionality. 👋 LinkedIn 💬 Text Greg’s Burner: (323) 579-1830🧑‍💻 Open Roles at Ad Hoc Labs (Mention “Sub Club” to get a closer look at your resume.) Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [0:00] The concept behind Wrangle, Greg’s first app [1:39] Twilio’s role in developing Wrangle and early challenges [3:24] Burner’s breakthrough with the “burner” feature for privacy [9:42] Wrangle’s pivot and what went wrong [13:36] Moving from paid downloads to a subscription model for Burner [24:47] Importance of user feedback in shaping the Burner product [33:24] The credit system and why it transitioned to subscriptions [38:55] Why retention and cohort analysis are key to Burner’s success [44:29] How Burner integrates new features like VPN for growth [54:33] Premium tier features: phone number lookup becomes popular [1:02:18] Bundling products: the decision to expand Burner’s offerings [1:09:53] Greg’s thoughts on acquiring apps vs building new features [1:23:38] Win of the year: faster paywall testing speed for Burner

On the podcast we talk with Ravi about subscriptions as a force multiplier for consumables, why narratives matter more than metrics in goal-setting, and why you might want to try a longer onboarding, or a shorter one. 📊 Stack the demand curveTinder didn’t just offer one price—it built a staircase of value. Low-tier subs, premium upgrades, and microtransactions filled in the gaps of user willingness to pay. The result? More people paid something, and some paid a lot. Don’t pick one price point. Map the whole curve.  🎯 Create value before monetizationThe fastest way to expand your TAM? Get users to the “aha” moment faster. Tinder made onboarding nearly instant to tap into a new, younger audience. In contrast, Sesame Care increased conversions with a 25-step flow by increasing user confidence. Friction isn’t the enemy—poor timing is. 💰 Free is a monetization strategyAt Tinder, 85–90% of users never paid. But their presence was the product—fueling demand and justifying spend for the other 10–15%. Don’t underestimate free users. Sometimes, they’re the reason someone else is willing to pay. 🧪 Price is productTinder didn’t guess what users would pay. It ran hundreds of localized price tests across SKUs to learn what users valued. Pricing isn’t a spreadsheet exercise—it’s part of the product experience and should be tested like one. 📐 Narrative beats metricsOKRs fail when they skip the why. Ravi’s NCTs framework, which stands for Narratives, Commitments, Tasks, anchors goals in story and context. If your team is hitting the numbers but drifting on focus, it’s probably time to start with the story—not the spreadsheet. 🪞 Monetization reveals product market fitMost apps undercharge. A scanner app might seem basic, but if it powers daily workflows, it’s worth real money. Set your price high enough to test willingness, not just conversion. If no one bites, you don’t have a monetization problem—you have a product one. About Ravi Mehta: 🔥 Former Chief Product Officer at Tinder and product leader at Meta, TripAdvisor, and Microsoft. 📈 Ravi helps companies turn behavioral insights into scalable monetization systems — from multi-tier subscriptions to habit-forming onboarding flows. 🗣 “If you have a product that’s solving an important need for someone, there’s a system around that that fits into the problem you’re solving, and you should think about the value of that system rather than just the price.” 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [0:00] Subscriptions as a force multiplier for consumables [3:03] Filling the demand curve with tiers and microtransactions [6:47] Why free-to-play was Tinder’s breakthrough innovation [10:26] Matching monetization to different user behaviors [13:09] Creating value for whales without breaking the game [17:22] Experimenting your way into the perfect pricing model [20:03] When free, trial, or paid onboarding makes the most sense [23:47] Why apps are undermonetized and how to fix it [28:43] Why a longer onboarding boosted conversion 40% [35:20] How shorter onboarding expanded Tinder’s total market [43:03] Narratives, commitments, and tasks: a better goal framework [01:02:49] Growth is easier when you own your audience

On the podcast, we talk with Eric about the opportunities and challenges of AI for consumer apps, what you can learn from Strava acquiring Runna, and the flawed thinking around ‘subscription fatigue’.Top Takeaways: 💸 Value Overcomes Fatigue Consumers would rather not pay for anything, but when a product delivers real value, they are happy to pay, even via subscriptions. Whether it’s training for a race, protecting memories, or learning something new, utility drives retention. Building long-term value wins every time. 🧠 Build a ‘Category Killer’ Eric identified ‘Strava for Pets’ and ‘Managing screen time and digital focus’ are opportunities for future ‘category killer’ apps. What do those two opportunities have in common? They are in categories where people are already spending a lot of money or have the opportunity to save a lot of time or money. 🤝 Build to be loved, not acquired The best M&A strategy? Build something consumers truly love. Runna didn’t sell to Strava because they planned for it, building cool features Strava didn’t have. They sold because Runna was a fantastic product that personalized running in a way that expanded the market Strava couldn’t.  ⚙️ Growth requires tough choices Conglomerates like Bending Spoons win through ruthless efficiency. They acquire apps, cut costs, and apply repeatable growth playbooks at scale. It can be controversial, but sometimes it takes an outsider to spot that the team that took an app to 1,000 users may not be the team to take it to 100,000 and beyond. 📈 AI changes discovery Search behavior is shifting, and SEO is no longer the only path to discovery. AI tools are becoming the starting point for many journeys, forcing marketers to rethink how users find and engage with products. Adapting to this shift means reimagining acquisition, not just tacking on AI features. About Eric Crowley:  👨‍💼 Partner at GP Bullhound, a global investment bank and venture capital firm. 💰 Eric leads the Consumer Subscription Software (CSS) practice, advising high-growth companies on capital raises and acquisitions—recently including AllTrails and Runna. 📊 “If you build a product that consumers truly love, strategics will come calling. It’s that emotional connection that drives outsized outcomes.” 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [0:00] Opportunities in subscription apps[7:12] Consumers still pay when the product delivers lasting value[10:41] What Strava’s acquisition of Runna reveals about building apps that get bought[17:30] Genuine consumer love over designing for a single acquirer[19:27] Shifts in discovery forcing app marketers to rethink SEO and acquisition[28:56] Using AI to move faster, create better products, and deepen moats[32:47] How loosened restrictions could return profit margins for top apps[46:43] The next big subscription plays[52:04] Why Bending Spoons are forcing investors to rethink consumer tech[57:11] What makes the Bending Spoons model work[1:00:10] The Secondary market is changing how founders think about app exits[1:01:41] Trends, exits, and the state of the subscription app ecosystem

On the podcast, I talk with Michael about the blessing and curse of having a brand, why post-purchase is the perfect upsell moment, and why partnerships are hard to pull off but can be well worth the effort. Top Takeaways:🌱Growth is Built on ValueSustainable growth comes from consistently adding value, not just short-term tactics.  Success lies in constantly evolving your product to meet users' needs. By regularly introducing new features and improving the user experience, premium products remain relevant and compelling. That value is continuous, with acquisition and retention working together to drive long-term growth. 🎯 Personalize for Retention Different users have different goals, and understanding this is key to retention. Tailor offerings to specific user needs, whether it is job seekers, hobbyists, or niche audiences. By tailoring plans and features to user intent, brands can keep their products relevant. Without this personalization, users may disengage and churn. 📊 Test to OptimizeWith hundreds of A/B tests each year, Condé Nast learns what works quickly. Data replaces debate, helping the team iterate faster. The goal is not just to optimize, it is to foster a culture of constant learning and growth. 🔄 Retention Is a Journey Churn does not always mean goodbye. Many users return later when their needs change. Offering win-back deals, fresh trials, and adding new value helps bring users back and turn them into long-term subscribers. Retention is a process, not a straight line. 🤖 AI Supports, Not LeadsAI should enhance the user experience, not overshadow it. AI’s role is to solve problems, helping users find content or personalize their experience, while staying behind the scenes. The real value is in solving the user’s needs, not in the technology itself. About Michael Ribero:  👨‍💻 SVP, Global Consumer Revenue at Condé Nast. 📈 Michael leads the subscription and growth strategies for some of the world’s most iconic media brands, including Vogue, GQ, The New Yorker, and Wired. He focuses on optimizing user engagement, experimenting with monetization strategies, and evolving the digital experiences that drive both free and paid subscriptions. 💡 "We’ve learned that true growth comes from continually adding value. Our approach isn’t just about scaling; it’s about providing lasting benefits that evolve with our users’ needs." 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [0:00] Why launching a premium tier isn’t always the right move[2:51] Competing with AI-native upstarts and influencer content[5:39] Media's frenemy dynamic with platforms like Meta[8:25] Balancing free vs. paid content without eroding brand trust[11:46] How to recover from a failed paywall experiment[13:23] What bundling and post-purchase upsells look like at Condé Nast[19:41] Real-world LTV boosts from zero-CAC upsell moments[22:30] Lessons from low-priced tiers like the Washington Post’s Starter Pack[26:07] Tiering vs. focus: when a premium plan is actually a distraction

On the podcast I talk with Josh about red flags that tank app valuations, why subscription-only apps are leaving money on the table, and how bootstrapped founders are cashing out for millions in months, not years. Top Takeaways:🎯 Build to sell, but build smartFlipping an app in under a year is still possible, but the skill that matters most now is marketing. With AI lowering the barrier to development, distribution has become the real differentiator. Founders who master organic channels, community, and creator-driven marketing are the ones who land meaningful exits. 💰 Predictability drives valueBuyers pay more for revenue they can trust. Apps built on recurring subscriptions with strong retention and low churn are far more attractive than those relying on ads or one-time purchases. Predictable cash flow isn’t just safer, it’s worth a higher multiple. 🚩 Short-term tricks destroy long-term valueArtificially inflating numbers before a sale, such as pushing lifetime deals to boost revenue, can quickly kill a deal. Serious acquirers look for sustainable metrics, not spikes. Authentic growth, honest reporting, and healthy retention are the hallmarks of a business built to last. 🔄 Fewer and deeper betsThe age-old quality-over-quantity principle still holds. After buying nearly a hundred small apps early on, BlueThrone learned that broad portfolios don’t win. Their new playbook focuses on a handful of apps with real product-market fit, strong organic traction, and teams ready to scale into category leaders. 💡 Hybrid monetization unlocks new growthBorrowing tactics from gaming, like consumables, day passes, and rewarded ads, helps subscription apps reach more users and capture more value. These models make spending feel flexible and fair, turning a single price point into an entire revenue spectrum. About Josh Peleg:   📈 Head of Business Development and M&A at BlueThrone, one of the world’s leading app acquirers. 💡 Josh helps founders scale and exit their apps, guiding deals that range from six to eight figures. 🎮 Before joining BlueThrone, he led mergers and acquisitions in the mobile gaming industry, giving him a front-row view of how distribution and monetization strategies evolve. 🗣 “The best apps today aren’t just great products—they’re great stories. Marketing and distribution are what turn a good idea into a real business.” 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [0:00] Lesson learned from BlueThrone’s early “go-wide” strategy  [6:20] Why founders have to be more than great builders  [8:19] The pieces that lead to higher valuations [12:37] Five signals that can kill a deal [18:12] When (and when not) to raise [24:33] Shifting from a broad portfolio to a few deep bets  [33:15] The future of monetization [45:07] What drives the best exits in today’s acquisition market [52:00] How founders can position themselves for life-changing exits 

On the podcast we talk with Mathias about running Subway Surfers' marketing machine on salaries, not ad spend, leaving money on the table to protect player experience, and why more apps should try rewarded ads, season passes, and other tactics from gaming. Top Takeaways: 🎨 Viral flywheels can out-perform massive paid campaigns Relying on salaries instead of ad budgets, a lean team can ship constant creative that rides cultural waves. Most experiments flop quietly, but the occasional viral hit fuels downloads across platforms and even influences app store featuring. The lesson: volume, autonomy, and cultural fluency can rival—or surpass—big-spend marketing. 🛡️ Protecting user experience is a growth strategy It’s tempting to squeeze harder on monetization, but avoiding overly aggressive tactics can pay off longer-term. By keeping the core product endlessly playable and resisting short-term optimization, teams can build evergreen engagement that compounds for over a decade. Sometimes the best ROI comes from not chasing every last dollar. 🎁 Rewarded ads expand who you can monetize Giving users the choice to watch ads in exchange for perks isn’t just a gaming trick—it’s a fairness mechanism. It allows players in tier-two and tier-three markets, who may never subscribe, to still contribute value. Apps beyond gaming can borrow this playbook to reach broader audiences without alienating core users. ⏱️ Season passes deliver transparency and trust Unlike recurring subscriptions, passes offer clear value over a fixed time window: pay once, play (or use) for the season. This structure avoids the “forgotten subscription” resentment while still generating meaningful revenue. It’s a model that translates well to utilities and lifestyle apps where usage is bursty or seasonal. 🤝 Collaborations multiply reach without heavy spend Crossovers between brands or products can reactivate lapsed users and bring in new audiences, even when no money changes hands. Like the music industry learned with features, one plus one can equal three when two strong IPs join forces. Subscription apps in adjacent niches can create the same effect. About Mathias Gredal Nørvig:  👨‍💻 CEO of SYBO, the company behind the smash hit mobile game Subway Surfers. 📈 Mathias and the small-but-mighty SYBO content marketing team have built a freemium mobile app with serious staying power. 💡“How do we entertain as many players as possible with something as available as possible, but also allow those who want to spend … money to progress or get more content to do so — without the expense of ruining the fun for the majority?” 👋 LinkedIn  Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:  [1:01] Staying power: How a subscription app like Subway Surfers achieves longevity with over 4.5 billion downloads. [4:30] Surfing the waves: How the Subway Surfers in-house creative marketing team creates and rides virality waves. [8:50] The content flywheel: How subscription apps can become self-sustaining with organic marketing. [16:27] Cash flow: What subscription apps can learn from the mobile gaming industry about alternative monetization strategies. [19:51] Paying the piper: How to balance a good user experience with when and how to require payment. [25:30] A watchful eye: The challenges of preserving brand reputation and protecting underage users in a freemium app that serves ads. [28:48] Teaming up: Avoiding cannibalization and partnering with competitors in the free-to-play space. [41:17] Day pass: How apps can experiment with consumables, day passes, and season passes to unlock new revenue opportunities.

On the podcast we talk with Ora about LinkedIn’s value-driven growth philosophy, how they personalize experiences and plan offerings based on user intent, and the complexity of running over a thousand experiments a year. Top Takeaways: 🌱 Growth follows value The surest path to long-term growth is adding features and benefits that genuinely help people achieve their goals. Growth tactics may bring a spike, but sustainable revenue comes from a product that keeps evolving so members find new reasons to return. When value creation is continuous, acquisition and retention become self-reinforcing. 🎯 Personalize by intent Not all users are looking for the same outcome. Job seekers, small business owners, and learners need different experiences. Matching plans, features, and paywalls to their specific intent—whether expressed directly or inferred from behavior—makes the product feel relevant and worth paying for. The alternative is irrelevance, which guarantees churn. 📊 Test like a scientist Scaling experimentation changes the culture: debates give way to data. By running over a thousand tests a year, teams learn faster, spot what actually resonates, and avoid relying on intuition alone. The goal isn’t just to optimize pricing or layouts—it’s to build a habit of constant learning that compounds into growth. 🔄 Retention isn’t linear Churn doesn’t always mean goodbye. Many users return months or years later when their needs change—“boomerang” behavior that can become a meaningful revenue stream. Win-back offers, refreshed trials, and simply continuing to add new value all help capture these returning customers and turn them into long-term loyalists. 🤖 AI is a tool, not the story Artificial intelligence should quietly power better outcomes, not become the headline. Helping users write a stronger profile, find the right lead, or save time drafting a job description creates tangible value. Positioning AI as a behind-the-scenes helper keeps the focus where it belongs: solving the user’s problem. About Ora Levit:  👨‍💻 Vice President of Product Management at LinkedIn. 📈 Ora manages LinkedIn’s billion-dollar online subscription businesses, growing both the free weekly active user base and adding value for LinkedIn Premium subscribers. 💡“Our offering changes over time, and as I mentioned, we believe in value-driven growth. We add a lot of value. And so the Premium that you've seen if you subscribed two years ago is not the Premium of today. It's a very different product, and I want you to try it out.” 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQ Episode Highlights: [0:00] Value add: How LinkedIn centers value-driven growth in their product development. [8:40] The long game: The importance of optimizing for and measuring long-term revenue. [9:57] Pay to play: Where to draw the line between free and paid features. [17:59] Put it to the test: Ora and her team prioritize A/B testing and user feedback over internal debates about feature ideas. [23:32] Take it personally: The role of AI and LLMs in personalizing in-app experiences. [27:47] Here today (and tomorrow): Strategies for retaining users in the long term and winning back churned users. [34:52] The AI touch: LinkedIn’s philosophy on incorporating AI features to add value to their product. [39:44] Two (or three) for one: Leveraging strategic partnerships to add bundled perks to a premium subscription offering. [41:43] Pulse check: Monitoring earnings calls, reports, books, and podcasts to stay in step with the current state of the subscription app industry.

On the podcast I talk with Eric about how measurement dysfunction paralyzes growth, why diversifying channels for the sake of diversification actually hurts performance, and the futility of trying to interpret why ads win. Top Takeaways: 📊 Broken measurement kills growth The biggest pitfall isn’t creative or channel choice—it’s disorganized measurement. When finance, product, and UA each use different models, growth stalls. The fix isn’t another dashboard; it’s alignment. Build one coherent, incrementality-aware framework everyone trusts, with clear definitions of success and outputs that meet each team’s needs. 🌊 Don’t diversify just to diversify Spreading budget across more channels feels safer but often reduces performance after integration, creative, and reporting overhead. Start with a waterfall method: max out your primary channel until ROAS hits your threshold, then move to the next. Diversify for scale or cross-channel effects—not optics. 🎲 Stop asking why an ad worked Winners often defy tidy explanations. Treat individual ad outcomes as stochastic and largely uninterpretable. Put your energy into the system: feed diverse concepts, automate prospecting/synthesis, and measure whether your process is increasing the rate of wins over time. Learn from inputs and process—not post-hoc stories about outputs. ⚡ Ship speed over certainty early You won’t have fully baked LTV or incrementality in week one. Push spend methodically: kill obvious losers immediately, let plausible winners age, track cohort ROAS at day-7/30/60, and widen budgets as curves support it. Iterative frontier-pushing beats premature “terminal LTV” guesswork. 🧩 Engineer better signals Algorithms optimize to the signals you send. Create intentional, high-intent events (light “hurdles” that correlate with LTV) and send those back to platforms. Better signals shift spend toward durable users and compound efficiency, especially as automation on major platforms accelerates. About Eric Seufert: 👨‍💻 Quantitative marketer, media strategist, investor, and author. 📈 Eric shares expert advice on the Mobile Dev Memo blog and is an investor at Heracles Capital. 💡 “The way I approach creative testing is trying to identify losers as quickly as possible. The winners take time to prove out, but the losers are pretty quick to prove out.” 👋 LinkedIn Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:  [1:00] Intelligent design: How to effectively incorporate AI into your business strategy. [4:52] I, Robot: Machine learning =/= generative AI. [8:36] AI Pitfalls: AI works best for automating tasks and coming up with ideas — not generating brilliant creative assets. [17:29] Predictive AI: Brand-specific, full-fidelity video ads generated by AI could be a reality within 18 months. [33:25] Risky business: How to effectively diversify across advertising channels to optimize ROAS-adjusted spend. [37:43] Measure of success: Above all, make sure your measurement system is coherent and has cross-team alignment. [42:04] Tortoise vs. hare: To balance speed and efficiency, identify your ad “losers” as quickly as possible. [44:43] Missed opportunity: Good marketing comes down to embracing some uncertainty and minimizing the rest. [49:23] Human touch: Why generative AI creative tools probably aren’t a worthwhile investment right now.

On the podcast I talk with Thomas about using signal engineering to optimize ad spend, how AI is changing creative testing, and why most people should avoid app2web… for now. Top Takeaways: 🧠 The biggest AI opportunity in ads is smarter analysis, not faster production AI is now good enough to produce ad-quality video and variants at scale — but that’s where 95% of the industry focus stops. The underused frontier is AI for analysis: spotting winning hooks, predicting performance, and even pre-testing creatives with “AI humans” before spend. The teams that combine rapid AI production with AI-driven analysis can iterate faster and scale what works more reliably. 🔍 Signal engineering starts with fixing broken data If the events you send to ad networks are inaccurate or poorly mapped, you’re sabotaging the algorithms. First step: make sure event counts match internal analytics within ~5–10% (not 30–50%). Then move from “normal” to “sophisticated” by filtering for quality — for example, optimizing to high-LTV trial signups instead of all trials — and sending value-adjusted revenue that reflects predicted LTV, not just day-one spend. ⚖️ Balance exploitation of winners with exploration of new concepts When a creative crushes it, it’s tempting to flood your account with variations. But over-reliance on a single concept speeds fatigue and leaves you exposed when performance drops. Keep iterating on winners and testing new hooks in parallel — especially on fast-moving platforms like TikTok, where trends expire in weeks. 🌐 App-to-web works best for big brands with deep resources Moving checkout to the web can bypass app store fees, but it’s a high-commitment experiment. Success usually requires brand trust, team bandwidth, and a well-tested flow — often with different plan structures than in-app. For most smaller teams, the opportunity cost outweighs the benefit. “Saying no to good ideas” is often the smarter prioritization. 💳 Hybrid monetization is powerful, but not plug-and-play Combining subscriptions with one-time or usage-based purchases can capture more revenue from different segments — especially for AI-powered apps with real compute costs. But designing it to avoid cannibalizing subscriptions is complex. Treat hybrid as a later-stage lever: exhaust easier wins in pricing, packaging, and paywall optimization first, then experiment, possibly starting with Android or non-US markets.  About Thomas Petit:  👨‍💻 Independent app growth consultant helping subscription apps like Lingokids, Deezer, and Mojo. 📈 Thomas is passionate about helping subscription apps optimize their ad spend and increase ROI through smarter testing. 💡 “The whole idea of signal engineering and optimization of the data that you're sending back is: send the network something better, and they're gonna do a better job. They are doing a better job — it's you who are not doing yours.” 👋  LinkedIn Follow us on X: David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights:  [1:21] Testing smarter: How AI may be changing the game for testing ads. [13:09] Untangling the web: App-to-web can work for some, but it’s not a slam dunk. [21:19] Hedge your bets: The benefits of moving away from subscription-only and embracing hybrid monetization strategies. [26:50] Going global: When and why to consider experimenting with hybrid monetization outside the US. [31:15] Signal vs. noise: The signal engineering framework for sending the most valuable user interaction data to ad platforms. [44:47] Multi-platform: Optimizing your data and event mapping for multiple ad networks. [53:01] Low-hanging fruit: Scoring easy wins with signal engineering. [1:08:04] Hands-off: Why ad networks likely won’t (and maybe shouldn’t?) implement built-in signal engineering tools for app marketers. [1:14:05] Going deep: Advanced signal engineering techniques. [1:26:09] Volume vs. quality: Why sending fewer events to ad networks may actually yield better results.

On the podcast I talk with Lucy and Nicole about how customer-driven iteration led Zumba from VHS tapes in 2001 to launching an app in 2024, their app2web experiments that boosted LTV by 17%, and how they are able to charge for content when countless Zumba classes are available for free on YouTube. Top Takeaways: 🗣️ Listening has driven 24 years of product evolution Every Zumba breakthrough — from instructor certifications born out of VHS buyer calls, to an app tailored for shy beginners — came directly from customer insights. The roadmap is data-led, not intuition-driven, ensuring they're always building what users genuinely want. 🎯 Subscribers pay for structured programs, not endless content Zumba realized users were overwhelmed by free YouTube videos. By creating curated, goal-oriented programs, subscribers now watch twice as many videos and retention doubled. People will pay for guidance and curation — not just more content. 🚀 Your growth ceiling depends on beginner retention With 70% of new users identifying as beginners, Zumba redesigned onboarding and UX to quickly move them toward completing three classes. Annual-plan signups reached 60%, and churn dropped dramatically. Early milestones for beginners unlock long-term growth. 🌐 Web checkout can lower conversion yet raise revenue Zumba shifted paywall taps to a simplified web checkout with Apple Pay and Google Pay. Immediate conversions dropped 25%, but higher annual plans, better retention, and no store fees drove a 17% lift in LTV. Optimize for long-term value, not just instant conversions. 🔁 Speed of iteration beats legacy processes every time Zumba’s lean, agile team tests and pivots relentlessly — from paywall pricing to removing unsuccessful features. Daily checks in Mixpanel dictate what scales or what’s cut. Moving quickly and iterating beats established practices and keeps growth steady. About Nicole Page & Lucy Levy: 📱 Nicole Page is Senior Product Manager at Zumba, leading app development with a focus on user research and fast iteration. From onboarding experiments to web-first paywalls, she brings a data-driven mindset to every launch. 💡 “Every launch is a hypothesis we’re testing, and we’re never afraid to pivot if the numbers tell us to.” 👋 Nicole 🚀 Lucy Levy is Chief Consumer Officer at Zumba, guiding the brand from VHS to app, boosting LTV 17% along the way with innovative strategies and beginner-focused design. 🌍 Together, they’re modernizing Zumba’s global community. 👋 Lucy Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQEpisode Highlights: [00:02:44] From VHS to app store: How three Albertos turned dance fitness into a global brand. [00:06:26] Community is the product: Why Zumba built its business around instructors, not just workouts. [00:11:01] Research at scale: How hundreds of interviews revealed why “The Shy Beginner” is their most important user. [00:14:30] Better churn than never: Why people leaving the app for live classes still counts as a win. [00:15:54] Can’t compete with free? Yes you can: The Zumba app’s curated programs outperform YouTube. [00:17:25] Double the value: Adding structured programs led to twice the content engagement and better retention. [00:20:04] Cracking community: Why their first chat-based social feature failed and what they’re planning next. [00:22:56] Test everything: Zumba’s app team operates with a growth mindset inside a 24-year-old company. [00:25:22] Data before breakfast: Why daily Mixpanel check-ins drive fast iteration and culture change. [00:26:09] App-to-web win: How a 25% drop in conversion still led to a 17% lift in LTV. [00:30:19] Checkout optimization: Using Stripe, Apple Pay, and Google Pay to simplify the paywall experience. [00:35:07] Push, don’t annoy: The team’s smart notification timing strategy based on user habits. [00:38:44] Beginner, please: 75% of users identify as new to fitness, so the app is built just for them. [00:39:01] Add friction, raise conversion: How a longer onboarding flow improved paywall success. [00:40:51] One class to hook them: Why Zumba offers just one free class before locking the app. [00:43:25] Three’s the magic number: Users who complete three classes are much more likely to stick. [00:44:56] No trial, no problem: Ditching the monthly trial increased upfront revenue and annual plan adoption.

On the podcast I talk with John about the fascinating 40-year history of Apple’s developer relations, how almost going bankrupt in the 1990s shaped today’s control-focused approach, and why we might need an ‘App Store 3.0’ reset. Top Takeaways: 🕹️ The 1980s: Apple’s developer DNA was born  Apple’s earliest wins came from nurturing third-party developers, even spinning off its own apps to avoid competing with outsiders. 💸 Microsoft saved Apple (literally)  Apple’s near-bankruptcy in the ’90s made them both humble and wary—forever shaping how they deal with developers and competition. 🍎 From “please build for us” to “we choose you”  WWDC 2008 saw Apple begging for apps and evangelist emails on slides; today, it’s the other way around. 🖥️ The “Delicious Era” fueled iPhone success  Mac indie devs (Panic, Delicious Monster, Bare Bones) built a design-obsessed, passionate community—setting the stage for the iPhone App Store boom. 🚪 App Store 1.0: A new world for indies  For the first time, solo developers could launch businesses from home. No server costs, no payments hassle—just build, submit, and sell. 🏦 Apple’s rules got stricter as the App Store grew  As the App Store became a services giant, the partnership vibe faded. Developers went from partners to “users” of Apple’s marketplace. 📉 App Store math now feels upside down  Today, indie devs can pay Apple millions, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing. The fee logic and incentives don’t fit 2025. ⏳ The platform needs an “App Store 3.0” reset  John and David call for a new era: lower fees, clearer rules, and Apple acting as a true platform partner—not just a toll booth. 🔄 Developer enthusiasm is Apple’s long-term moat  Apple risks becoming a “legacy only” giant if it loses developer goodwill. The most important apps are still built by outsiders. 👥 A generational handoff is coming  With Apple’s senior leadership nearing retirement, now is the time to set new priorities: empower developers, invest in the ecosystem, and ensure Apple’s platforms stay vibrant for decades to come. About John Gruber: 🚀 Author of the Daring Fireball blog, host of The Talk Show, and co-creator of Markdown. 🍎 John is a lifelong Apple fan and is passionate about discussing all things iPhone, App Store, and developer relations. 💡 “I feel like Apple is dwelling on the success and the innovation that completely revolutionized the phone industry […] for too long and that they should move on and build something else new.” 👋  Daring Fireball  Resources:  Bill Gates in 1984 promoting Apple Macintosh Bill Gates on stage with Steve Jobs in 1983The Macintosh Way — Guy KawasakiCocoa Programming for Mac OS X — Aaron HillegassDaring Fireball Follow us on X:  David Barnard - @drbarnardJacob Eiting - @jeitingRevenueCat - @RevenueCatSubClub - @SubClubHQ Episode Highlights:  [0:00] Apple Kremlinology: Why understanding Apple requires a special kind of obsession - and a long memory. [4:58] Fanboys unite: David shares how his love of Apple led him from audio engineer to App Store developer. [8:48] Turning point: John’s link to David’s iPhone mileage app in 2008 helped jumpstart his indie career. [13:37] Joz, Phil, and Eddy: The developer relations and most of the App Store are overseen by three Apple execs who joined in the ‘80s. [17:01] The crossroads: How Apple’s early decision to unbundle first-party apps in the ‘80s encouraged third-party innovation. [21:25] Hands off: Why Apple’s decade-long retreat from building software paved the way for a thriving developer ecosystem. [27:07] Vision parallels: John compares Vision Pro’s slow start to the original Mac - and explains why it doesn’t have to be perfect (yet). [30:32] Betting on the future: How Apple playing the long-game is their biggest advantage in launching and sustaining new platforms. [33:55] What comes after the Mac: The ‘90s were filled with failed next-gen Apple platforms - and it almost killed the company. [36:47] Burned by success: Apple’s trauma from near-bankruptcy shaped their need to control developer relationships. [41:13] The App Store revolution: Why the 2008 launch of the App Store wasn’t just a business move, it was a turning point for software itself. [45:07] Developer momentum: How passionate indie devs and Mac software of the 2000s primed the iPhone for success. [53:46] iPhone jailbreakers: Why the jailbreak community may have pushed Apple to launch the SDK sooner than expected. [57:39] App Store 2.0: In 2016, Apple dropped some commission rates, opened up subscriptions, and kicked off a new era. [1:03:03] Time for 3.0: Why David believes the App Store needs another reset - and a shift in mindset. [1:08:26] Humility and hardware: Steve Jobs’ 1997 apology to a developer at WWDC still echoes - and it’s exactly what developers need to hear in 2025. [1:13:30] Holding on too tight: How Apple’s fear of losing control is costing them developer goodwill. [1:26:35] A legacy worth protecting: The iPhone isn’t going anywhere - but without change, Apple could become a legacy business as other platforms take over. [1:32:06] Red flags on Vision Pro: Why developers aren’t building for Apple’s newest platform - and why that should worry Apple. [1:39:18] The indie paradox: How small developers pay millions to Apple, while giants like Meta pay almost nothing.[1:41:39] Fluke of history: Schiller once floated capping App Store revenue at $1B. What if Jobs had said yes?[1:44:35] The trust gap: Could a more generous App Store policy bring Netflix and others back? [1:47:08] It’s not too late: Why Apple should proactively change the App Store instead of waiting on regulation. [1:57:26] Developer vibes: A simpler App Store (with clearer rules and lower fees) could renew trust and drive innovation. [2:00:29] Bigger than profit: Making great soft...