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What does it look like to keep following Jesus when the shape of the invitation changes? In this conversation, Rob sits down with longtime friend, mentor, and missional pioneer Hugh Halter to talk about Hugh and Cheryl’s surprising move from Alton, Illinois, to the mountains of Idaho—and what Hugh is discovering as he enters what he calls “the back thirty” of his life. They explore calling and surrender, becoming a “sage friend,” and Hugh’s new work with The Journeyman Society, a simple and reproducible approach to forming men who can lead other men toward Jesus. Hugh unpacks the disciple-making DNA underneath Journeyman: incarnational mission, the priesthood of all believers, ordinary people making disciples, and an ecclesiology where church can emerge anywhere people are learning to follow Jesus together. The conversation also gets deeply personal. Hugh talks about Cheryl’s health, the recent death of his father, his own need to keep being spiritually formed, and why formation and mission belong together. It all leads to one unforgettable image: the difference between seeing a grizzly safely behind glass and encountering the bear in the wild. Hugh doesn’t want the domesticated version of Jesus. He wants to stay close to the bear. Read the companion article, “Stay Close to the Bear,” at:https://starfishyou.substack.com Learn more about Hugh’s new work with The Journeyman Society:https://thejourneymensociety.com

What would it look like to make disciple-making common again? In this episode of Starfish and the Church, Rob sits down with Molly Soderstrom, leader of The Brook, a growing grassroots disciple-making movement among young professionals in Denver. The Brook has grown into a network of around 55 simple churches, but the story begins much smaller: a dance teacher who noticed Molly, shared Jesus with her, and modeled the simple idea that what we receive from Jesus is meant to be passed on. Molly shares how following the breadcrumbs of calling led her from campus ministry into the loneliness and spiritual curiosity of Denver’s young professionals. They talk about hospitality as mission, why happy hours and Instagram can become unlikely doorways into spiritual family, the power of simple and reproducible disciple-making practices, and what happens when ordinary people hear someone say, “I see this in you.” They also wrestle with a timely question: If we are praying for revival, are we prepared to disciple the people who respond? This is a hopeful conversation about calling, hospitality, multiplication, and recovering disciple-making as an ordinary way of life. Want to go deeper? Rob wrote a companion article for this conversation, “Make Disciple-Making Common Again,” exploring Molly’s story, The Brook, and what their experience may be teaching us about the future of disciple-making in North America. Read it on StarfishyoU on Substack. You can also find The Brook at thebrook.city and on Instagram at @thebrook.city.

In Part One, Todd Wilson and I traced the surprising 70-year journey of the Church Growth Movement from Donald McGavran’s missionary vision of gospel saturation and people movements to the consumer-driven, attractional system many churches inherited. In Part Two, we ask the harder question: What if the problem isn’t simply our model, but the operating system underneath it? Todd shares the moment when he realized that a church could become remarkably effective at organizational growth without necessarily producing the kind of disciples and churches that reproduce generationally. His phrase becomes the thread running through the conversation: How you add makes all the difference. We talk about why programs and volunteerism can create a very different kind of fruit than relational disciple-making and everyday missionary living, why finances can reveal what an operating system is actually optimized to produce, and why simply installing a new “missional” or “microchurch” app may not change anything if the old operating system is still running underneath it. We also get practical. What can leaders do if they are still serving inside an existing church system? Todd argues that the answer is not necessarily blowing everything up, but creating R&D spaces where genuinely new forms of disciple-making, mission, and church can develop without being forced to immediately conform to the old scoreboard. And we look forward. What might the next era of the church look like if disciple-making became our primary growth engine, ordinary missionaries became our primary means of extension, and our best capacity-building genius was redirected toward multiplying people on mission rather than simply expanding institutions? If you sense that something beneath the surface of church life needs to change, this conversation is for you. Read the companion article and subscribe to StarfishyoU:https://starfishyou.substack.com Get Todd Wilson’s full book, summary edition, and audiobook free:https://church-growth.org/#thebook And perhaps the place to begin is much simpler than rebuilding the whole system: What is the one next step Jesus is asking you to take?

What if the modern Church Growth Movement didn’t actually begin with megachurches, seeker-sensitive services, multisite campuses, or the familiar scoreboard of bodies, buildings, and budgets? In Part One of this conversation, I sit down with my friend Todd Wilson, founder of Exponential and author of How Did We Get Here?, to trace the surprising 70-year journey of the Church Growth Movement. Todd went back to Donald McGavran, generally considered its father, and discovered something that reframes the whole story: McGavran was a missionary in India focused on gospel saturation, people movements, relational networks, ordinary missionaries, and multiplying churches. So how did we get from that missionary imagination to the consumer-driven operating system so many churches inherited? We follow that story through suburbia, consumerism, Robert Schuller, Bill Hybels, Peter Drucker, Bob Buford, Rick Warren, Purpose Driven, marketing, management, the rise of the megachurch, and the modern leadership industry. This is not a story about bad people or bad motives. It is a much more interesting and unsettling question: What happens when good missionary instincts slowly get absorbed into a different operating system? Todd offers one line that sits underneath the whole conversation: “How you add makes all the difference.” A church can become remarkably effective at adding people without necessarily producing people who can reproduce the life of Jesus in others. If the fruit we produce becomes the fruit that multiplies, then understanding our operating system matters enormously. If you’re asking how we got here, why so much of church life seems harder and more expensive while producing less of what we long for, and what God might be growing next, this conversation is for you. Read the companion article and join the StarfishyoU Substack: https://starfishyou.substack.com Get Todd’s book and audiobook FREE: https://church-growth.org/#thebook Part Two continues the story and asks what it might actually take to escape the old operating system and recover a genuinely multiplying one.

In this Bonus Conversation of the Starfish and the Church podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Rodrigo Cano of the Chicagoland Collective to explore disciple-making, microchurches, and gospel saturation across the complexity of Chicagoland. Beneath the stories of Aurora, house-to-house ministry, collaboration, and citywide networks is a deeper conversation about shifting from attraction to presence, planting disciple-makers instead of simply building programs, and what it looks like when the Church in a city begins acting like one Body. If you’re hungry for ordinary disciple-making, microchurches that emerge from real relationships, collaborative leadership, and an ecosystem vision for reaching whole cities with the love of Jesus, this conversation is for you. Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free at ⁠https://starfishyou.substack.com⁠. More from Rodrigo and the Chicagoland Collectivehttps://www.chicagolandcollective.com/ More from Community Christian Church Microchurcheshttps://www.communitychristian.org/microchurches

In this Bonus Conversation of the Starfish and the Church podcast, Rob Wegner sits down with Shane Boyd of Gathering of Nomads to explore disciple-making, microchurches, and decentralized mission among America’s growing nomadic RV community. Beneath the stories of campfires, travel, and life on the road is a deeper conversation about planting people instead of churches, rediscovering the missionary nature of the Church, and what it looks like when the Gospel begins moving again at the speed of relationships. If you’re hungry for disciple-making that leads to multiplication, Jesus-shaped decentralized leadership, and simple missional expressions of the church, this conversation is for you. Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free at https://starfishyou.substack.com. More from Shane and the gathering of Nomads https://www.gatheringofnomads.com/

What if our discipleship isn’t actually making disciples? In this Bonus Conversation, Rob Wegner and Peyton Jones challenge some of the most common assumptions about discipleship in the modern church. From “coffee cake Christianity” to the Great Commission, they explore how Jesus formed His disciples, why disciple-making often gets pushed to the margins, and where real multiplication actually begins. If you’ve ever wondered why our systems don’t seem to produce movement, this conversation will hit close to home.

What if the biggest barrier to church multiplication isn’t strategy—but identity? In this conversation, Rob Wegner and Brian Phipps dig beneath the surface of church growth to explore the deeper discipleship, healing, and leadership shifts required to move from addition to multiplication. They talk honestly about why multiplication is often slower, more personal, and more costly than leaders expect—and why obedience to Jesus matters more than competence or scale. Drawing from Brian’s new book, Breaking the Addition Addiction, the conversation surfaces the heart-level issues that shape how leaders measure success, share ownership, and form disciples who actually reproduce. Together, they wrestle with questions every leader eventually faces: Why does multiplication feel so elusive? What has to heal in us before multiplication can happen through us? How do we release control and invite shared ownership without losing clarity or faithfulness? This episode is especially for leaders who sense that something in the prevailing church growth narrative doesn’t quite line up with the way of Jesus—and are ready to imagine a more faithful, decentralized, disciple-making future. Resources & Next Steps 👉 Join the StarfishyoU Substack for free:https://starfishyou.substack.com You’ll get access to free articles, assessments, tools, and reflections to help you pursue: Jesus-shaped, decentralized leadership Disciple-making that leads to multiplication Simple, missional expressions of the church If you’re tired of chasing numbers and hungry for lasting fruit, this conversation is for you.

🎙️ Apostles: Generals, Gardeners…or Something Else? In this Bonus Conversation, Rob Wegner, Alan Hirsch, and Brian Johnson gather over pizza to explore why apostolic leadership has become a crossroads moment for the Church. They unpack two radically different visions: apostles as empire-building generals vs. apostles as humble architects who cultivate Gospel ecosystems. From Alan’s personal stories (including being recruited by a secret dominionist cabal) to reflections on the Seven Mountains Mandate, this conversation names the tensions—and offers a better way forward. Listen in as they discuss: The dangers of power and platform without accountability Why we need both Pauline (pioneering) and Petrine (remissionalizing) apostles How dominion language drifts from the way of Jesus Practical steps for living into decentralized, relational, generative leadership 💡 For more resources, articles, and tools, visit starfishyou.substack.com.

Bonus Conversation: Same Vocabulary, Different Spirit What happens when the same fivefold vocabulary is used—but fueled by a radically different spirit? In this episode, Rob Wegner, Brian Johnson, and Alan Hirsch dive into the fork in the road facing the Church today. On one side: the rise of the New Apostolic Reformation, steeped in hierarchy, dominion theology, and Christian nationalism. On the other: the Spirit-distributed, Jesus-shaped model of Ephesians 4 ministry—where power is cruciform and every disciple is activated. This conversation unpacks why fivefold leadership isn’t just a theological side note—it’s a discipleship crisis, a leadership reckoning, and a call to rewild the Church. Same vocabulary. Different spirit. Totally different outcomes. 🔗 Read the full companion article and join the conversation at starfishyou.substack.com

Bonus Conversation: The Rise of the Servant Equippers (ft. Lucas Pulley) Episode Description:What kind of leadership helps movements multiply without losing their soul? In this Bonus Conversation from the Hubology series, Rob, Brian, and Lucas Pulley (Tampa Underground) unpack the hidden role of servant equipers—those who quietly cultivate health, support microchurch leaders, and build only the structures the vine actually needs. They explore the power of invisible leadership, the difference between hub teams and governing elders, and why you should never build what you don’t yet need. Whether you’re planting your first microchurch or navigating how to scale a decentralized network, this conversation offers grounded wisdom, practical frameworks, and a whole lot of laughter (and hot pink cast drama). 🎧 More conversations, articles, and resources at: https://starfishyou.substack.com #microchurch #disciplemaking #movementleadership #decentralizedchurch #starfishandthespirit

In this bonus episode, Rob and Brian tackle one of the most pivotal questions in movement leadership: When is it time to form a hub team? Drawing from years of experience with the Kansas City Underground, they explore why starting with structure can sabotage multiplication—and how waiting on the Spirit’s timing creates space for healthy, decentralized networks to flourish. You’ll hear stories, biblical insights, and practical frameworks for discerning the right time to equip, coach, and convene through a hub team. Plus, learn about our free Hub Development Cohort and the KC Underground Intensive coming this summer. 👂 What You’ll Learn:– Why forming a hub too early can kill a movement– The three core functions of every hub team– How to recognize emerging servant-equipers in your city– The role of extraordinary prayer and fasting in network formation 📍 For more: starfishyou.substack.com🌐 Apply for the next Hub Cohort: kcunderground.org

In this Bonus Conversation, we explore the power of contextualization within decentralized movement leadership through a deep dive into two distinct hubs in the Kansas City Underground: Zero Hour, equipping high school students, and Western Edge, serving a broad suburban and rural network. Cory McElvain (Zero Hour) and Brian Johnson (Western Edge) join us to share how they each adapt the core functions of equipping, coaching, and convening for their unique communities. From student-led microchurches to intergenerational discipleship, this conversation offers real-world insight into the beauty and challenge of contextual leadership. 🔑 Key Highlights: Contextualization in Action: Compare how a youth-focused hub and a multi-demographic hub live out the same movement principles differently. Equipping Students vs. Families: Learn how training content is adapted—from 4-week essentials to deep dives with seasoned leaders. Real-Time Coaching vs. Long-Form Mentoring: Hear how coaching rhythms flex with life stage and context. Different Models of Convening: Explore how monthly student gatherings contrast with long-term rhythms of adult fellowship and planning. One Movement, Many Expressions: Discover why contextualization isn’t optional—it’s essential in decentralized systems. 📖 This conversation builds on the companion article: “No Two Hubs Are the Same.” 🎧 Listen now and learn how leaders are innovating with courage and care to multiply disciple-makers in diverse soil. 🔗 Read, share, and subscribe for more conversations from the frontlines of missional movement: https://starfishyou.substack.com/

Bonus Conversation: Equipping Gatherings vs. Weekend Services - What's the Difference? In this bonus episode, we explore how equipping gatherings form a radically different culture than weekend services. It’s not about inspiration—it’s about incarnation. From stories of mission to discovery-based training, these gatherings function more like a gym than a theater, equipping ordinary people to live as everyday disciple-makers. 🎧 Listen now, and get the companion article, and then dive deeper at starfishyou.substack.com

In this Bonus Conversation, we dive into the heart of equipping—the very lifeblood that powers decentralized disciple-making. As we explore hubs, tools, and training, we uncover the core of equipping at the edge. This isn't about more content; it’s about transforming lives and multiplying Kingdom work through intentional, practical support. Check out the companion article over at https://starfishyou.substack.com/ Key Takeaways: 🔥 Tools MatterWhen it comes to disciple-making, tools aren't optional—they're essential. In fact, tools are a core part of how we equip ordinary people to live extraordinary lives on mission. From context mapping (apostolic + evangelistic) to lament practices (prophetic + shepherding), tools help activate action, shape culture, and drive transformation. 🔥 Equipping Through Action, Not IdeasDiscipleship isn’t learned through content dumps; it’s learned through practice. People act their way into new ways of thinking. Just like plumbers need wrenches, disciple-makers need tools—simple, repeatable tools that lead to action. 🔥 Training Huddles: High Support, High ChallengeIn a hub, equipping isn't a passive experience. It's a relational space where everyday people are coached to lead. Training huddles offer high support and high challenge, flipping the classroom dynamic. No gurus here—just facilitators who help midwife what the Spirit is already birthing in the lives of disciple-makers. 🔥 Equipping Frameworks: Holistic Tools for GrowthOur equipping isn’t random. It’s based on intentional frameworks that help disciple-makers see their journey—tools, training, and rhythms that go beyond mere theory. The Disciple-Maker Pathway lays out five interconnected phases of growth—prayer, incarnational mission, planting the Gospel, microchurch emergence, and multiplication. 🔥 Context is KeyEquipping isn’t one-size-fits-all. It's contextual. The tools we use, the huddles we create, and the frameworks we build are all shaped by the environments we’re in. As we evolve, we listen—what are the gaps? Where are we getting stuck? And how can we adapt? The Bottom Line: Equipping is always evolving. It’s about listening to the Holy Spirit, staying humble, and adapting to the needs of the edge. As we listen, learn, and lean into Jesus, we create space for people to grow and multiply—becoming the hands and feet of Jesus in their everyday places.