Advertise on podcast: The Systemic Way

In this episode, we’re turning our attention to the UK drama Adolescence — a series that begins with a single, shocking event but quickly reveals a much wider web of responsibility. Rather than focusing solely on the actions of one young person, the drama draws us into the interconnected systems surrounding him: family, school, peer culture, mental health services, and the criminal justice system. Using a systemic psychotherapy lens, we’ll explore how meaning, behaviour, and risk are produced within relationships — and how patterns of communication, power, silence, and inaction shape what unfolds. We’ll look at not just what happens on screen, but what fails to happen: where systems don’t speak to each other, where responsibility is displaced, and where intervention comes too late. Adolescence invites us to move away from simple narratives of blame and instead ask more complex questions about how distress is held — or missed — across the wider system. We are joined by the regular Systemic Lens Team of Becky Midlane, Anokh Goodman, Danilen Nursigadoo, Nafeesa Nizami (Naz). 

In Grandmotherland, Dr Judith Edwards offers an exploration of Grandmotherhood as an intergenerational, relational, and socially constructed position. Drawing on myth, fairy tales, family narratives, and contemporary lived experience, she examines how dominant cultural discourses shape expectations of grandmothers and organise family roles, boundaries, and power across generations. Judith attends to patterns of transmission, alliance, exclusion, and care, situating Grandmotherhood within wider socio-economic and cultural contexts—including the increasing reliance on grandmothers for childcare. Grandmotherland invites systemic practitioners and scholars to rethink grannyhood not as a fixed role, but as a dynamic position shaped by relationships, histories, and social structures. Judith Edwards is a child and adolescent psychotherapist who has worked for over thirty years at the Tavistock Clinic in London. Love the Wild Swan: The Selected Works of Judith Edwards was published by Routledge in their World Library of Mental Health series, and her edited book, Psychoanalysis and Other Matters: Where Are We Now? was also published by Routledge. From 1996 to 2000, she was joint editor of the Journal of Child Psychotherapy. Apart from her clinical experience, one of her principal interests is in the links between psychoanalysis, culture, and the arts, as well as making psychoanalytic ideas accessible to a wider audience. She has an international academic publishing record and in 2010 was awarded the Jan Lee memorial prize for the best paper linking psychoanalysis and the arts during that year: ‘Teaching & Learning about Psychoanalysis: Film as a teaching tool’.

In this episode of The Systemic Way, we talk about age in the room—listening for it not as decline, but as presence, memory, and becoming. Drawing inspiration from Maya Angelou’s On Aging, where she writes of being “old as the hills, and far from done,” we explore lifecycle transitions, working with older people, and how a therapist’s age is read, misread, and positioned in the therapeutic relationship. We reflect on age as a cultural and systemic story: how wisdom, power, invisibility, authority, and expectation are shaped across generations and communities. This is a conversation about the assumptions we inherit, the vitality that persists, and what age—spoken and unspoken—brings into systemic practice.

In this episode we speak with no other than Dr. Jaako Seikkula on this latest bookWhy Dialogue Does Cure: Explaining What Makes Dialogue Unprecedentedly Effective in Difficult Crises (2025). The book presents the core principles of Open Dialogue, a system of psychiatric care and dialogic psychotherapy that has spread to over 40 countries. Why Dialogue Does Cure explores the transformative power of Open Dialogue, a radically humanistic approach to mental health care developed in Western Lapland. This episode unpacks why dialogic practice—where clinicians, clients, families, and networks meet in shared conversation—can lead to recoveries unimaginable in conventional psychiatry. Together we discuss the history, development and discovery of how Open Dialogue redefined care: not by aiming to eliminate symptoms, but by meeting the full human through transparent, team-based dialogue. Dr. Seikkula argues that the widening gap between humanistic and conventional approaches must be bridged—and that dialogue itself can be curative. This episode is essential listening for psychotherapists, clinical psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and anyone interested in meeting the full human in therapeutic practice.   Seikkula, J. (2025). Why dialogue does cure: explaining what makes dialogue unprecedentedly effective in difficult crises. 

In this episode, we reflect on the deeply moving documentary White Nanny, Black Child (2023), which explores Britain’s “farming” system — a practice through which over 70,000 West African children were fostered by white British families between 1955 and 1995. Through the voices of nine adults who reunite to share their experiences, the film opens up tender and painful reflections on identity, belonging, and survival. We listen to the echoes of care and silence that continue to shape lives long after childhood — and we explore how systems of care can become systems of control when infused with colonial legacies and racialised assumptions. We speak with Micheal Henry, the systemic therapist who facilitated the Tree of Life work featured in the film. Himself care-experienced, he shares his personal and professional reflections on holding space for these stories — the tensions of being both witness and participant — and the power of collective narrative practices in reconnecting people with identity, community, and pride. Together, we consider what this story teaches us about how care systems remember, forget, and repair. How do we, as systemic practitioners, listen to what was once unspeakable? How do we make space for histories that live inside the present? And what might healing look like — for individuals, families, and the systems that raised them? An invitation to think, feel, and reflect systemically on survival, silence, and the enduring search for belonging. Film Reference: White Nanny Black Child. Directed by Andy Mundy-Castle, Doc Hearts and Tigerlily Productions, Channel 5, 2023. Micheal Henry Bio: Michael Henry, is an African-centred Systemic Family and Couples Psychotherapist based in North London. With over 30 years of experience supporting individuals, families, and organisations, Michael brings deep insight into complex trauma, relationships, and identity. A UKCP and AFT-accredited clinician, Michael’s approach blends Systemic Psychotherapy, African Psychology, and Integrative practice, drawing on training in Narrative Therapy, Gottman Method, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), EMDR, and Brainspotting. Born and raised in East London to Jamaican parents, Michael’s work is grounded in cultural awareness, compassion, and wisdom. His journey—from youth work and child protection to psychotherapy and organisational consulting—reflects a lifelong commitment to understanding how people grow, heal, and connect.

In this very special episode we sit down with members of the DWP - Race Group (Shakira Nkanang, Calvin Malcom and John Burnham) as we turn our systemic lens on the iconic album by Tracy Chapman (Tracy Chapman 1988).  We ask, how does Tracy Chapman's album provide a soundtrack for confronting race, power, and privilege in therapeutic practice?  What do the anthems of our lives reveal about the systems we live in? We unpack how "Talkin' 'bout a Revolution" isn't just a protest song, but a sharp analysis of how power maintains itself by dismissing dissent as a "whisper." We explore "Fast Car" as a devastating map of intergenerational poverty and the gendered family roles that keep people trapped in cycles of false hope. And we listen closely to "Baby Can I Hold You," hearing the profound relational miscommunication and emotional withdrawal that can microcosm the failures of larger systems to truly hear and respond.  This episode connects the political, the economic, and the intimately personal, revealing how Chapman's work gives us a language to explore the systems that shape our clients' worlds—and our own. This conversation is more than an analysis of music; it's a living example of how to grapple with systemic themes to transform training, therapeutic practice, and organisations themselves. Join us for a session that bridges art and action, and discover how Chapman’s revolutionary whispers can continue to inspire our own. Calvin Malcolm is a Principal Family and Systemic Psychotherapist working in Devon Partnership Trust Adult Mental Health Services, he is also a Systemic Family Psychotherapist with 26 years of CAMHS experience. He is a Guest Lecturer on the DClinPsy Systemic Teaching at The University of Exeter, and Guest lecturer on the Plymouth University Intermediate level in Family Therapy Course. He is a Systemic Psychotherapy Tutor for doctors in training in Devon. He is also a Systemic Supervisor and a member of The Association of Family Therapy organisation that supports Family and Systemic Psychotherapy training and practice standards John Burnham trained as a Social Worker in 1974 and went on to become Consultant Family and Systemic Psychotherapist in the Inpatient Service for Eating Disorders at Parkview Clinic, Birmingham Women’s and Children’s Hospital, Birmingham. John’s approach to therapy and supervision is under the influence of systemic, narrative, and social construction theories and my working class roots.  His professional passions include ‘thinking theory and talking ordinary’; ‘turning practice into theory’ , ‘creating self and relationally reflexive practices’;  ‘creating solidarity between young people, parents and professionals through multiple family therapy’, and using social and personal GgRRAAAACCEEEESSSS….S to enable clients and practitioners to conceptualise and influence their experiences.   Shakira Nkanang is a Systemic Psychotherapist working for an Independent Fostering Agency, where she conducts therapy sessions with foster carers and social workers. She also delivers foster care and trauma-informed training, as well as systemic training to support supervising social workers. Shakira incorporates an embodied systemic approach in her work and maintains a private practice, working with culturally diverse clients. She is the facilitator of the AFT 'Race' and Diversity Working Party Group. Tracy Chapman - Tracy Chapman is an American singer-songwriter known for her soulful voice and thought-provoking lyrics. Rising to fame in the late 1980s with hits like "Fast Car" and "Give Me One Reason," her music blends folk, rock, and pop with themes of social justice, personal struggle, and hope. With a career spanning decades, Chapman has become an iconic figure in the music world for her powerful storytelling and timeless sound.

In systemic psychotherapy we often focus on the words we use, but what about the sound of them? In this episode, we meet with systemic psychotherapist and social worker Jordan Makmihe to explore the subtle yet significant role of accent in therapeutic practice. Our conversation considers how the nuances of our speech—the melody, the rhythm, the inflection—carry unspoken stories about identity, belonging, and power. We discuss how these vocal cues quietly influence the relationship between therapist and client, shaping perceptions and dynamics in ways that often go unexamined. We gently unpack the concept of the "standard" accent and its quiet authority, and reflect on the experience of speaking—or listening—with a "non-standard" one. This isn't about grand pronouncements, but about the quiet practice of noticing: noticing our assumptions, our reactions, and the small moments of connection or misunderstanding that accent can bring. Join us for a thoughtful discussion on discovering ways to make space for this often overlooked dimension of human difference, and on the simple yet profound, act of listening more closely to how we speak and hear each other. Jordan Bio: Jordan Makmihe is a qualified systemic psychotherapist, systemic supervisor, and social worker. He trains and supervises other therapists, and has had research published. Jordan works in the NHS, social care, education, and independent practice. Paper reference:  The forgotten piece of the orchestra: Raising awareness of accent as a key dimension of identity and experience, and ideas for aesthetic explorations in practice – Jordan Makmihe Context 188, August 2023

In this thought-provoking episode, we sit down with therapist, trainer, supervisor and author Desa Markovic to explore her compelling paper on the Aspects of Reading (2021) - a model that invites practitioners, students, and educators into a deeper, more layered relationship with texts. Desa guides us through a nuanced framework that separates and then interweaves four key reading positions: The Author’s View, The Reader’s Personal Response, Critique, and Self-Reflexivity. Together, we unpack how this model encourages readers to momentarily suspend judgment, identify personal biases, engage ethically, and reflect on the multiple contextual influences that shape meaning. We also discuss the limitations of reading, the intersections of culture, identity, and professional formation, and how this model challenges both passive consumption and systemic echo chambers in training. Whether you're a systemic practitioner, academic, or lifelong learner, this episode offers a powerful invitation to slow down, ask better questions, and develop a more intentional relationship with what we read—and how we read it.  “When I feel this way, what does it allow me to learn from this particular paper?” — a question that might just transform your reading practice. Markovic, D. (2021). Aspects of Reading. Murmurations: Journal of Transformative Systemic Practice, 3(2), 129-136.

In this inspiring and thought-provoking episode, we sit down with peace activist, former Jain monk, and ecological visionary Satish Kumar to explore the profound power of Radical Love—the focus of his latest book. Together, we dive into how love can be understood not just as a personal feeling, but as a systemic force capable of transforming families, communities, and entire societies. Satish shares his reflections on how love can shape education, economics, politics, healthcare, and environmental action—offering a bold invitation to reimagine social systems rooted in compassion, care, and connection. From his early life in India to walking thousands of miles for peace, Satish brings rich personal stories and deep wisdom about how love, empathy, and interdependence can heal both people and the planet. Tune in for an exploration of: The role of love in shaping resilient families and communitiesHow Radical Love challenges dominant systems of power, economics, and politicsPractical ways to cultivate love in social action, education, and daily lifeThe intersection of love, justice, and sustainabilityWhy love must become a guiding principle for systemic changePrepare to be moved, challenged, and inspired. Radical Love (2023) https://shop.resurgence.org/product/view/REBK111/radical-love To see peace in our lifetimes, we have to practise love. This is the radical message of this inspirational book of pithy advice from environmental activist Satish Kumar, which helps us find ways to love ourselves, others, and all beings on planet Earth—even those we may find unlovable. Satish Kumar is well known for his epic walk for world peace in his youth in the 1960s from India to the nuclear capitals of Moscow, Paris, London, and Washington, DC. Wherever he traveled, he found that human beings were capable of a love that could overcome hatred and division. Settling down in the UK, he married his wife, June Mitchell, and founded eco-university Schumacher College in Devon, eventually becoming a leading figure in the UK green movement. Radical Love distills the author’s lifetime of experience as a lover, parent, activist, and educator into simple lessons on transforming our time of ecological crisis, conflict, and scarcity into one in which we experience harmony with nature, safety, and abundance. It is an exploration of the transformative power of love in all its forms, from romantic love to love for one’s family and community to love for the planet and all beings. Kumar’s approach is founded on simplicity (including the Jain principle of aparigraha), generosity, and continuous learning. Like an unfolding metta meditation, the book expands our notions of love to its most sublime universal state and makes a great gift to share with those we love.

What if our biggest crises – from climate collapse to mental health – demand not simpler solutions, but a deeper embrace of complexity? Join us for a profound conversation with Nora Bateson, award-winning filmmaker, writer, and systems thinker. Nora takes us inside the rich ecology of ideas explored in her groundbreaking book, Combining. Nora challenges us to see the world as a web of inseparable relationships, where every action ripples with incalculable consequences. She argues compellingly that tackling our "Polycrisis" requires understanding interdependence, sitting with ambiguity, and nurturing the vital, often unseen, connections she calls "Warm Data" – the lifeblood of complex systems. Discover how "Combining" uniquely blends intellectual rigor, emotional vulnerability, storytelling, poetry, and art to invite us into "Aphanipoiesis" – the mysterious processes by which life collaboratively fosters vitality and evolution. Nora urges us beyond the illusion of "fitting in," towards a practice of "uncutness" and radical interconnectedness. We delve into the real-world application of these ideas through her pioneering Warm Data Labs. Learn how these immersive, transcontextual gatherings foster new ways of knowing and relating, moving beyond isolated data points to grasp living, relational patterns. Crucially, we explore Nora's deep connection to systemic psychotherapy. How does her work, rooted in the legacy of her father, Gregory Bateson, resonate with therapeutic practices? How does understanding systems at multiple levels – from the personal psyche to the global ecosystem – inform healing, relationships, and our collective responsibility for humanity's future? Prepare for a mind-expanding journey where love, humour, curiosity, and the courage to be vulnerable collide with the urgent trials of our time. Nora Bateson doesn't just offer analysis; she beckons us towards revelation and revolution in how we perceive ourselves, our communities, and our place in the intricate tapestry of life.

In this rich and wide-ranging conversation, we sit down with Umberta Telfener, President of EFTA, and Hans Christian Michaelsen, Vice President, to explore the heart of systemic practice across Europe. Together, they unpack what EFTA (European Family Therapy Association) is, how it’s structured, and what it offers to both long-standing members and curious newcomers. We hear about their personal journeys into systemic therapy, the organization’s current goals, and the evolving landscape of family and systemic practice in response to global challenges—from climate change to social justice. We also dive into the EFTA Task Forces—on Social Justice, Research, Training Standards, Ethics, and External Relationships—and explore how these working groups are shaping the future of systemic thinking and action. Whether you’re a seasoned practitioner or just discovering systemic ideas, this episode offers an open invitation to get involved, attend the upcoming EFTA Congress, and take part in a growing, reflective, and forward-thinking community.

In this episode, we speak with Taiwo Afuape and Sumita Dutta, Co-Directors of the Institute of Family Therapy in London, to explore the rich history and bold new direction of one of the UK’s leading centres for systemic practice.  Together, we reflect on IFT’s legacy, its role in shaping generations of family therapists, and how its current leadership is reimagining training and practice through a lens of social justice, inclusivity, and innovation. This is a conversation about change, continuity, and the power of collective vision. https://ift.org.uk/

Join us for an inspiring and thought-provoking interview with Dr. Harlene Anderson, a trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and co-founder of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach. In this deep dive, we explore her revolutionary ideas—from challenging traditional therapy hierarchies to redefining power, knowledge, and the role of language in healing.   We’ll unpack:   - The origins of her work—What drew her to the Mental Research Institute (MRI) and constructivist ideas? Who were her early influences?   - The birth of the Collaborative-Dialogical Approach—How did she and Harry Goolishian shift therapy from "expert diagnosis" to conversational meaning-making?   - The myth of "not-knowing*—How has this controversial (and often misunderstood) concept evolved? Is it a political stance, a therapeutic tool, or both?   - Power, reflexivity, and ethics—Can therapists truly "not know"? How do we balance lived experience with professional knowledge without reinforcing oppressive dynamics?   - Real-world applications**—How do these ideas translate beyond therapy into education, organisations, and social justice?   Plus, we include listener questions which tackle the tough critiques: Is "not-knowing" still misused today? Does it risk ignoring systemic power? And how do therapists ethically choose which discourses to engage?   This is a conversation about unlearning, curiosity, and the transformative power of dialogue—one that challenges therapists and listeners alike to rethink how we engage with each other’s stories.  

Join us in this insightful episode as we sit down with Dr. John Launer, a retired GP, family therapist, and pioneer in integrating systemic and narrative approaches into healthcare. Dr. Launer shares his journey from general practice to becoming a leading figure in training healthcare professionals to use therapeutic conversations in their everyday work. Discover the transformative power of Conversations Inviting Change (CIC), a method Dr. Launer co-developed to help clinicians balance the normative demands of medicine with the reflective, curiosity-driven practices of systemic and narrative therapy. Learn about the Seven Cs framework—Conversation, Curiosity, Context, Complexity, Challenge, Caution, and Care—and how it can revolutionize patient interactions, supervision, and teamwork in healthcare settings. Dr. Launer also reflects on the challenges facing the NHS, the importance of storytelling in medicine, and his hopes for the future of healthcare education. Whether you're a healthcare professional, therapist, or simply curious about innovative approaches to communication, this episode offers valuable insights into creating meaningful, patient-centered care. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion that bridges the gap between medicine and therapy, and explores how curiosity and reflection can transform healthcare practices.

Join us for an inspiring and personal conversation with John Burnham, a true trailblazer in systemic psychotherapy and a visionary in the field of family therapy. With a career spanning over five decades, John has dedicated his life to transforming the way we understand and approach mental health, particularly in the context of eating disorders and family dynamics. In this insightful podcast episode, John Burnham, reflects on his decades-long career, sharing personal and professional experiences that have shaped his approach to systemic psychotherapy. He discusses the importance of relationships, both in therapy and in life, emphasizing how trust, risk-taking, and role-playing are essential tools for growth and connection.  John recounts memorable moments from his practice, including how live supervision and reflective teams have influenced his work, and highlights the value of humility, curiosity, and adaptability in therapeutic practice. He also touches on the evolution of family therapy, the importance of staying relevant in the field, and his hopes for its future. With warmth and wisdom, John offers a heartfelt exploration of what it means to be a therapist, a colleague, and a lifelong learner in the ever-changing landscape of psychotherapy. Summary of episode: Role of Role Play in Learning:Importance of role play in helping students learn by making mistakes, recovering, and moving forward.Example of a supervisor demonstrating techniques with families in front of students, which students found helpful.Overcoming Fear of Failure:Students often hold back due to fear of making mistakes or not knowing how to start.Encouragement to take action, even if clumsy, rather than waiting to be "clever" or perfect.Families can be forgiving and collaborative in the process.Engaging Families in Therapy:Therapists need to show willingness to engage with families before expecting families to engage in therapy.Importance of taking initiative and co-creating solutions with families.Example of a therapist reading through a client's extensive notes and deciding to engage based on the person, not just the notes.Building Trust with Marginalized Families:Some families, such as same-sex couples, may fear judgment or criticism from therapists.Therapists need to reach out and create a safe space for these families to engage.Example of a therapist meeting a same-sex couple at the top of the stairs to reassure them and invite them into therapy.Ethics of Offering Therapy:Debate on whether to offer therapy without meeting the client first.Perspective that it is unethical to reject clients without meeting them and understanding their unique situation.Personal Reflections on Career and Privilege:Gratitude for being able to work in a field that is fulfilling and impactful.Reflection on the privilege of loving one's job and making a contribution to others' lives.Connection to personal family history, such as a parent who trained as a family therapist but never practiced.Decolonization in Family Therapy:Family therapy as a decolonizing process against the medical model and individualization.Discussion of presentism and judging past actions by current standards.Reflection on the lack of exposure to racial issues in a monocultural environment and how that shaped early understanding.Intergenerational Impact of Training:Therapists training the children of those they previously trained, highlighting the long-term impact of their work.