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We’re sad to announce that KTF Press is closing down, and this will be our last episode of Shake the Dust. But both of us will continue to do work in different places. In this conversation, we cover: - Why KTF is closing - What will happen to our newsletters, articles, podcasts, and books - What we’re both doing next - What the experience of running KTF has been like for us - What we want to leave listeners with - And a benediction Where you can see some of our upcoming work: - Jonathan’s new book that you can preorder now! Beauty and Resistance: Spiritual Rhythms for Formation and Repair - Jonathan’s new Substack, The Crux - Sy’s new website for his freelance work Credits - Follow Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. - Follow Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. - Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. - Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. - Editing by Sy. - Production by Sy and our incredible subscribers The transcript for this episode was autogenerated by Substack and may contain errors This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

On this month’s bonus episode, Jonathan and Sy talk about our political system from a practical and theological view: - What we can accomplish using America’s political system - The limits of what political action can do - Given those powers and limits, how Christians should approach politics - And, in Which Tab Is Still Open, boycotting as a spiritual practice Mentioned on the Episode: - Pastor Erina Kim-Eubanks on boycotting as a Lenten practice - Malcolm Foley’s book The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money Is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward - Aja Barber’s book, Consumed: the Need for Collective Change - The Vox podcast episode with Barber, and its transcript Credits - Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. - Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. - Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. - Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. - Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. - Editing by Sy. - Production by Sy and our incredible subscribers The transcript for this episode was autogenerated by Substack and may contain errors This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

On this month’s bonus episode, Jonathan and Sy discuss: - What exactly the Trump administration does to distract the media and the general population so it can achieve its goals - How it uses the erasure of experiences from outside MAGA world to demean and suppress opposition - What we can do to resist Trump’s agenda in light of these tactics - And, in Which Tab Is Still Open, making sure immigrants know their rights when dealing with ICE, and preparing for those encounters ahead of time Mentioned on the Episode: - Ezra Klein’s op-ed, “Don’t Believe Him.” - Professor Austin Kocher’s post about knowing your rights when encountering ICE - “Know your rights” distributable cards for immigrants in English - The same card in Spanish - The feelings wheel skill sheet to help kids work through hard conversations Credits - Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. - Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. - Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. - Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. - Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. - Editing by Sy. - Production by Sy and our incredible subscribers The transcript for this episode was autogenerated by Substack and may contain errors This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

On this month’s bonus episode, Jonathan and Sy are talking political education in this new era of traditional and social media bowing to Trump and the MAGA movement. We get into: - The beliefs about free speech behind the changes at Meta that Mark Zuckerberg recently announced - How our understanding of healthy discourse differs from those beliefs - And tips for staying politically educated in this new environment Credits - Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. - Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. - Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. - Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. - Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. - Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy. - Editing by Sy. - Production by Sy and our incredible subscribers Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Sy Hoekstra: The moderation isn't really a problem, it's sort of the greed behind the companies. Like, the people who have realized, “Oh, I can make a ton of money by making people super angry [laughs]. And I don't care what that does to our public discourse, because it makes me money.” That's the real problem to me. It's not actually the fact that somebody has said, “I will not let people say anti-Semitic things on my platform. “ [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Hello, hello, everybody. This is Sy. Jonathan and I are still recording these monthly bonus episodes on Substack live. Thank you if you were able to join us for the live recording this time around. I'm just here to tell you that the recording cut off the very, very beginning of what I said when we started. So if I just dropped you in, it wouldn't make any sense. What I'm gonna do is seamlessly transition us from this to the live recording. Now ready? Here we go. Welcome to this bonus episode of Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. [transition to live recording] I'm Sy Hoekstra. Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Welcome again to this bonus episode recorded live on Substack. Thank you to everyone who is joining and watching right now and watching later, and again, thanks for being a subscriber to this podcast. We appreciate you. Sy Hoekstra: We are going to be talking today, as the headline says, about how to be politically educated, how to keep yourself politically educated in this new era of Trump. And not just Trump, but also both legacy and social media platforms, kind of bowing the knee to him and doing his bidding [laughs]. Political education has always been central to what we talk about at KTF Press, and our reasons for doing it and what we’re trying to accomplish haven't changed, but the way that you go about doing it is actually starting to change in significant ways. So we thought we would take some time to talk about kind of the reasons behind the changes that are happening in the media and how that means we need to be paying attention going forward in order to remain people who are informed and who can be helpful and who can serve the kingdom of God in our politics. So we're kind of merging the whole show together. Normally, we have our conversation and then we do separately the Which Tab Is Still Open, which is where we have a segment where we talk about diving deeper into one of the things from our newsletter, one of the highlights that one of us brought out from the news in our newsletter. When we were talking about this conversation, I was like, “I wanna talk about the Meta stuff and Mark Zuckerberg and those announcements that he made.” And as we had the conversation, we sort of realized that's actually the whole episode [laughter]. Jonathan Walton: Yeah, exactly. Sy Hoekstra: We're doing a whole episode of Which Tab Is Still Open. I will explain those of you who don't know, give a brief summary of what it is that Mark Zuckerberg said exactly last week, and then we will get into the meat of the conversation. And then we'll be talking about how to find trustworthy sources and how to better understand the political and news climate that we are in in this new Trump era. So this is gonna be a really good conversation. I'm sure you’ll all enjoy it. Jonathan, though, before we get started, it's your turn to talk [laughter]. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Well, if you're listening to this live, please consider becoming a paid subscriber and supporting this work so we can do more of it. If you become a paid subscriber, you'll get access to this video, audio and all of our live and bonus episodes from like [laughs] the last four years. You also get access to archives of everything that we've done, our Zoom calls as well. So please, please, do become a paid subscriber. You'll also get the ability to comment and interact with us more, and you'll be supporting everything that we're doing as we push for just political discipleship and education and leave behind the idols of the American church. Welcome to all y'all who just signed on. For everybody, if you do like Shake the Dust, definitely go to Apple, Spotify, give a great review. That helps people discover the show and lets us know that y'all appreciate what we're doing, and we are so excited to jump into this conversation today. Go for it, Sy. Sy Hoekstra: All right, let me get us caught up. And for the people who are live, feel free to comment or question in the chat at any point, and Jonathan will be monitoring that. We will incorporate that into our discussion. And join us live, by the way, if you wanna have that opportunity, if you're listening later. So like I said, what I'm gonna do is explain just the brief bullet points of everything that Mark Zuckerberg said in his reel last week [laughter]. Jonathan Walton: Right. Sy Hoekstra: And all of the changes that are happening at Meta, which is Facebook and Instagram and Threads. Jonathan Walton: Right. Sy Hoekstra: And then we will get into the conversation about it after I go into that. Like I said, Which Tab Is Still Open right at the top of the show. So here are the announcements that he made, and they're all about content moderation and filtering content and everything on Facebook and Instagram and Threads. So the first thing, he has six announcements. I'll go through them really quickly. One is they are ending their fact checking program [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: They are completely getting rid of all of their mostly third party fact checkers and replacing them with community notes like they have on Twitter, meaning users will be doing the fact checking and trying to post notes to correct disinformation on Facebook, instead of having professional fact checkers doing that. He will be limiting moderation on certain subjects. He specifically mentioned immigration and gender. People who have subsequently reported about the policy changes have said there are also things about race and some other subjects that will not be moderated. And this is like basically saying that censorship on those subjects is out of touch with mainstream discourse now. All of this he made pretty clear, was revolving around Trump's election. They're gonna be focusing their content filters, like their automatic, not the actual people doing the fact checking or the humans doing the moderation, but the robo content filters [laughs] on illegal content and high severity violations, as he described them. So that's stuff like drugs and terrorism and child exploitation, that sort of thing. And then anything that is not on those subjects, in order for the filters to act in any way, people will have to affirmatively report them. The filters won't act preemptively. They're gonna bring back what they call civic content, which is like their political content. They had been, as a lot of you probably know, sort of hiding it. You had to go into your settings and say that you specifically wanted to see it to get it in your feed. So they're taking away that filter, that'll be back in your feed. And then the [laughs], there's two more. One is the safety and content moderation teams. They are moving to Texas, where they're, as Mark Zuckerberg put it, “where there will be less concerns about their biases.” They are currently in California, so that tells you which biases [laughs] he cares about and which he doesn't. Also, by the way, other reporters have said a lot of their content, there's some of their content moderation teams are already in Texas, but… Jonathan Walton: It's true. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: It’s a hand wave, yeah. Sy Hoekstra: Exactly. The rest of them will be moving to Texas. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: And then finally, he said he'll be working with Trump and the US government to push back on governments, he specially named Europe, Latin America and China, who want Facebook to be doing more moderation and content filtering, which he always refers to as censorship, to push back against them, combined with the power of the American federal government. Specifically noting that over the last four years, it has been difficult, because the American government was asking for more censorship. Jonathan Walton: Right. Sy Hoekstra: And all of this he justifies under kind of a heading of giving people a voice and allowing people to share their real experiences and free speech. He mentions the constitution and just our culture of free speech and discourse.

In this month’s bonus episode, we talk all about why and how to have difficult conversations about important political subjects with people who disagree with you. We get into: - What are goals are in these kinds of conversations - Strategies for regulating our emotions and achieving those goals - The power dynamics to keep in mind when having these conversations - And afterward, our segment Which Tab Is Still Open?, diving into a fascinating conversation with Rev. William Barber about what Democrats could gain if they paid attention to poor voters You can find the video of the portion of this episode that we recorded live at ktfpress.com. Mentioned in the episode - Disarming Leviathan by Caleb Campbell - The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas - Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Pete Scazzero - When Helping Hurts by Steve Corbett and Brian Fikkert - Difficult Conversations by Douglas Stone, Bruce Patton, and Shila Heen - Crucial Conversations by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, and Ron McMillan - John Blake’s interview with Rev. William Barber Credits - Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads - Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. - Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. - Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. - Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. - Editing by Sy Hoekstra - Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. - Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript Introduction [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Sy Hoekstra: Hey everyone, it's Sy. Quick note before we start. Stay tuned after this recording of our conversation, which we did on Substack Live because we recorded our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, separately due to some time constraints we had. Thanks so much for listening, and the episode officially starts now. Jonathan Walton: If your relationship is broken by what you think about trans rights, then I think we need to examine what kind of relationship you had in the first place, because I think our relationships have to be much more than our opinions about the latest political topic of the day. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking… [long pause] Jesus, confronting injustice. I am Jonathan Walton [laughter], and we’re live on Substack. Sy Hoekstra: Jonathan starts the live by forgetting our tagline [laughter]. Jonathan Walton: It’s true. It’s true. So welcome to Shake the Dust. My name is Jonathan. We are seeking justice, confronting injustice. See, this is live. Live is hard. Go for it, Sy. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Thank you for being here, Sy. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, sure. I'm Sy Hoekstra, that's Jonathan Walton. Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live, if you couldn't tell. This is a live recording of our podcast. We are gonna ease into it, and then we'll be good. Don't worry. Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: We're doing this live as a recording, and then we will be releasing the audio and the video later to our paid subscribers. So if you're listening, welcome. Alright, we are gonna be talking today about a subject that comes to us from a listener that came in as a question on our finale episode, but it came in a couple hours too late, and I missed it before we started recording. But it was such an interesting question that we decided to make a whole episode out of it. So thank you to Ashley, our listener, who sent this in. We will be talking about basically, how to regulate yourself and actually strategies you can employ when having difficult conversations with people you disagree with on important subjects, the power dynamics and everything all around it, and literally just how to do it, which is actually kind of something that a lot of people have been asking us. Ashley comes at it from a really good angle that we'll be talking about too. So we'll get to all that in a moment. We will also be talking, as we usually do in our episodes, doing our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, diving a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. And this week, we will be talking about a really great interview with William Barber, the Reverend William Barber, and basically how poor people can but often don't affect elections because of the ways that the Republican and Democratic parties approach poor people. So we will get into all that in a second. I will apologize for my voice still sounding like I have a cold. It sounds like I have a cold because I have a cold, and [laughter] I have the eternal fall-winter, father of a two year old in daycare cold [laughs]. So bear with me, and I appreciate your patience. Before we get into all this, Jonathan Walton, go ahead. Jonathan Walton: Well, if you are listening live, thank you, thank you, thank you so much for tuning in, and I just wanna encourage you to become a paid subscriber of our Substack. If you do that, you get access to video and audio of this conversation afterwards, you also get bonus episodes and our entire archive of bonus episodes as well. Plus, when you become a monthly paid subscriber, you also get access to our monthly Zoom chats, and you'll be able to comment on our posts, communicate with us on a regular basis. And so that would be great. Plus, you'll be supporting everything that we can do to help Christians confront injustice and follow Jesus. And so that's particularly in the areas of political discipleship and education, as we try to leave behind the idols of the American church. And for everybody, if you do listen to this, please go to Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you might listen, and give us a five-star rating. If you wanna give less than that, you can also but you can keep that to yourself. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Thank you so much for your support and encouragement. We really appreciate it. Sy Hoekstra: Four stars and below, give us those ratings inside your head [laughter]. Also, if you have any questions and you are listening live, feel free to put them in the chat. We can answer those as we go. And alright, Jonathan, let's jump right into it. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: We got this question from Ashley. She comes at it from an interesting angle. I wanted to talk about the things that she doesn't wanna do, and then get into her questions. So she said, when she's talking about people that she disagrees with on important political or religious subjects, there's a couple of things that she did growing up. One of which was the only reason that you're engaging in these conversations as a conservative Evangelical, is to change people into you [laughs]. Is to win people over to your point of view and make them the same as you. That's your goal. Then she said she kind of grew up a little bit, went to college, became what she called it, an ungrounded liberal arts major [laughs] and started getting into what she described as the sort of millennial slash Gen Z cusp age that she is. Just it being cool to shut people down and just defeat them, destroy them in an argument. So she’s just like, “I don't wanna be there just to make people into me. I don't wanna be there just to destroy people.” But she said now she finds herself in a position where most of the people around her largely agree with her on important subjects, and she just doesn't spend a lot of time around people who don't. So just kind of wants to know how to get into that, because she thinks it is important. She was saying some political organizers really convinced her that it is important to be doing that. And she just wants to know how you regulate yourself, how you go about it, and all that. What’s the Goal When You’re Having Difficult Disagreements on Important Subjects? Sy Hoekstra: And although that question was really interesting, and we're gonna jump into the actual strategies, I think Jonathan, the place to start is when you're having these conversations with someone, if you're not trying to cut them off, if you're not trying to turn them into you, and you're not trying to shut them down, what are you trying to do? What's the actual goal of what these conversations are? And for those of you who might be listening live or listening to us for the first time, this is Jonathan's wheelhouse [laughter]. This is right in what Jonathan does all the time. So Jonathan, go ahead, tell us what is the actual goal of these conversations? Jonathan Walton: Yes. So I wanna start off by saying that none of this is easy. Sy Hoekstra: For sure. Jonathan Walton: I'm giving you a cookie cutter, boxed up wonderful version of a cake that you don't… Like all the ingredients are in there, all you need to do is add water. And life is not like that. Sy Hoekstra: Yes. The Goal Should Be Connection, not Cutting off or Colonizing Jonathan Walton: But if you're not trying to colonize someone or make them into you, and you're not trying to cut someone off just because they disagree with you, or you're not trying to cancel them, shut them down, hold them accountable in a way that leaves them feeling like a puddle of ignorance in front of you, then what you're actually trying to do is connect with them. And so I think that God made us to be in relationship with other people, and being in relationship with other people means that we're able to sit before them, to see and be seen, without trying to consume or control the ot

It’s our season finale! We’re answering listener questions and talking: -        Staying grounded and emotionally healthy post-election -        Some mistakes people are making in their election analysis -        Why the politics of identity will never go away in America -        How the Church can and can’t fight anti-Blackness and other forms of injustice -        Where you can hear us in between seasons -        And a lot more! Mentioned in the Episode: -        Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor by Rev. Caleb Campbell -        Our newsletter from last week with a worship playlist and sermon Jonathan recommended -        The Webinar Intervarsity is doing with Campbell on Tuesday – Register here. -        The article on patriarchy by Frederick Joseph: “For Palestinian Fathers, Sons, and Brothers” -        Our free guide to processing and acting on the injustices you encounter Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript Introduction [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Sy Hoekstra: The beauty of the church is not in how good it is. The church is beautiful in the light of Christ, not in the light of its own good work and goodness. The church is beautiful when it is people collectively trying to put their faith in the grace that governs the universe, and not put their faith in their own ability to bring the kingdom of God into this world. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra. Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today. It's our season four finale. We're answering listener questions and continuing our discussion from our Substack live conversation two weeks ago, about where to go from the Trump election as followers of Jesus. Sy Hoekstra: And because this is the finale, let me just take a quick second to tell you where we are going from here. We are gonna be doing our monthly bonus episodes for our paid subscribers, like we usually do when we are not on a season of this show. We are going to be doing them though slightly differently. You will have the opportunity to hear them at one point if you're not a paid subscriber, because we're gonna record them like we did two weeks ago on Substack Live. So if you want to see those when they are being recorded, download the Substack app. If you get on our free emailing list, you'll be notified when we start. You just need to go ahead and get that app, it's both on iOS and Android. And if you wanna make sure that you're getting our emails in your Gmail inbox, because we've heard some people tell us they're going to the promotions folder or whatever Gmail is trying to do to filter out your spam, but actually filtering out the stuff that you wanna see, you just have to either add us to your contacts, or if it's in the promotions folder, just click the “Not promotion” button that you can see when you open your email. Or you can actually just drag and drop emails that show up in your folders to your inbox, and then it'll ask you, “Hey, do you wanna always put emails from the sender in your inbox?” And you can just click, yes. So do one of those things, add us to your contact, drag and drop, click that “Not promotions” button that'll help you see those notifications from us. Jonathan Walton: If you'd like access to the recordings of those bonus episodes, plus access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, become a paid subscriber at KTFPress.com. We would so appreciate it and you would be supporting our work that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics, and culture to help you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are two friends resisting the idols of the American church in order to follow Jesus faithfully, and would love for you to join us. So become a paid subscriber at KTFPpress.com. Sy Hoekstra: And we've said this before, but we should probably say it again. If you want a discounted subscription or if money's a barrier to you joining us as a paid subscriber, just email us, [email protected]. We'll give you a free subscription or a discounted subscription, no questions asked. You will not be the first person to do it if you do. Other people have done it, we've given it to them. We won't make it weird because we want everyone to have access to everything that we're doing. But if you can afford to support us, please as Jonathan said, go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Let's jump into it, Jonathan. Jonathan Walton: Yeah, man. Sy Hoekstra: We, a couple weeks ago on our Substack Live, we were talking about processing through grief and like what we have been hearing from people. We've had lots of questions and lots of conversations since then. So we're sort of combining, amalgamating [laughs] lots of subscriber questions into one, or even just questions from friends and family. I just wanna know how you are continuing to process the election and what you're thinking about grief and how we move forward, or how we look back and see what exactly happened. Staying Grounded and Emotionally Healthy Post-Election Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So I think that one of the things I just have to acknowledge is that I'm tired of talking about it, and not okay talking about it. Like just the level of energy it takes to have regulated, like emotionally regulated healthy conversations is exhausting. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Jonathan Walton: And so, just naming that. So last week I think I was in a better place than this week recording. And so I'm recognizing I need to be able to take steps back and set boundaries so that I can be in a healthier place. And I just encourage everybody to do that. We all need rhythms and disciplines that keep us grounded. That is not like, oh, when I'm in this season, I need spiritual discipline. No. We actually are supposed to have them all the time. But I think in moments like these and seasons like this, we actually need them just in a more pointed way. It reminds us that we do. So those are things that I'm doubling down on, like starting to listen to worship music. If you check out last week's newsletter, I actually had a worship set from a worship leader in Columbus, Ohio, who basically said, if you can't sit across someone who has a different political perspective than you, then you probably can't worship with them. So let's start off with worship. And so they made a, I don't know, a six hour playlist of songs from different traditions and said like, play it without skipping it. Without skipping a song. Don't be like, “I don't like this song, I don't like this. I don't like…” This reminds me of them. Like, just listen to the whole album because somebody who is different from you meets Jesus through the words of the song. And he said, “You would never know that I don't like some of the songs that we sing [laughter], but I sing them. And I thought that was just a really honest thing. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. You said it was six hours long? Jonathan Walton: It's a lot. I haven't made it through a third of it. Sy Hoekstra: Okay [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: It's long. And the sermon is also linked in the newsletter as well. It's just a great message from Pastor Joshua. Sy Hoekstra: This is a pastor in Ohio that you're familiar with? Jonathan Walton: Yes. Sy Hoekstra: How did you get connected to this? Jonathan Walton: Yeah. So someone on the political discipleship team for InterVarsity, shout out to Connie Anderson, who's written… Sy Hoekstra: Oh, great. Jonathan Walton: …a lot of our stuff. Our InterVarsity stuff. Sy Hoekstra: Yes. Not KTF stuff. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. She just, she said, “Hey, I really appreciated the sermon and I was able to listen to it, and I'm working my way through the songs. And if I skip a song, I'm gonna go back, because I'm not the only person on my Spotify. Shout out to all the Moana and Frozen tracks that get stuck in there. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: So all that to say, that's like the first big thing, is setting boundaries, trying to have healthier rhythms so that I can be fully present to my family and myself. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Having Difficult Conversations by Meeting People Where They Are Jonathan Walton: Also, I think it's really important to remember, particularly when I'm frustrated, I have to remember to meet people where they're at the way that Jesus met me. I have not always known that Christian Nationalism was bad. I didn't always have another term for it that captures the racialized, patriarchal environmental hierarchy of it called White American folk religion. I didn't always know about police brutality and the rural urban divide. I didn't know about those things. And what I desperately needed and unfortunately had, was patient people who were

This is the recording of the conversation we had earlier today on Substack Live reacting to the election. We got into different kinds of grief people may be feeling and our responses to them, how to move forward in the church with uncompromising empathy, and what we thought of the somewhat surprising demographic shifts in this race. There is an AI transcript on the video version of this episode that is on our website, KtFPress.com, and a full transcript will be coming in the next few days. Join us for our next live video in the Substack app. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.ktfpress.com

Listen to a recording of our monthly subscriber chat from this past Tuesday, where Jonathan, Sy, and our subscribers get into: -        How to practice hope and peacemaking in fearful times like this election season -        How peace is different than unity, and takes power dynamics into account -        How hope is shaped by God’s presence with us, the depths of evil and suffering we see around us, and perspectives outside our context -        And we discuss and contextualize the news about increased BIPOC support for Trump Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Editing and Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Intro and Announcements Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra, and this is a bonus episode where we are bringing you the subscriber conversation that we had just a couple of days ago. You might notice that I, both in the recording and right now sound a little bit sickly just because I have COVID. Don't worry, everything is fine. It's been pretty mild, but I sound stuffy. We are bringing you a great conversation today about hope and about peacemaking in difficult times and times like this election, frankly. Why hope is so hard to have, both because it's risky, but also because it can seem privileged and naive, and why we think it's not and we do it anyways. Some stories of where that kind of hope comes from. And we talk about peacemaking and how it's not the same as just unity and kumbaya, but how we sometimes strive for unity in the name of peace. And sometimes we strive for a little bit of strife, maybe, to tell some truth in the name of peace. Not maybe, we definitely do that a lot [laughs]. And then we get into a little bit about some kind of changing, somewhat changing demographics about who is voting Republican and why that is. And that actually makes sense when you understand it from the perspective of whiteness and colonization. Quick favor to ask, if you like this podcast, which I know you do because you're listening to the subscriber only feed, go give this show a rating on Spotify or Apple Podcasts. And if you're on Apple, give us a written review too. They are so encouraging, and the ratings and the reviews help other people find us and see that other people think that this show is good and worth their time. Also, in case you missed it, we are going to be doing a Substack live conversation on November 6th at 1pm, that's the day after the election. If you're listening to this, you're already on our mailing list, so that means you will be notified via email. You will need the Substack app. There will be a link in that email, but you can also download the app at any time, iOS or Android, and then you'll be able to watch our live video conversation. We've already done the tech check and everything [laughs] to make sure that it all works. It's a new feature on Substack, and we're excited to talk to you, kind of in that new format. So do join us, Wednesday, November 6th, at 1pm to hear our reactions to what happened on Election Day and whatever is going on after it. There's a lot of possibilities. Trump will have declared that he won no matter what happened, that's my guess, and we will be moving on from there. So please do come join us. That'll be, I don't want to say, a fun conversation, but it'll be an interesting conversation for sure, and you will find some grace in it and some people who share your values. So join us then, and alright, without any further ado here is our monthly subscriber conversation for October. [The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Let's pray. Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, deliver us from the evil one. For thine is kingdom, the power and the glory, forever and ever, amen. Sy Hoekstra: Amen. Jonathan Walton: And thanks again for all of you all for being here. Sy is gonna set up our time. What does it mean to have hope or be a peacemaker in stressful times like the election? Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, thanks for coming. We just figured we wanted to, I mean, obviously we do this every month, but we wanted to talk some about kind of what it means to be a thoughtful peacemaker in a time like the next week [laughs] or the next couple of months to come, depending on what exactly happens next week. And first of all, you'll hear I'm a little stuffed. I apologize. I have the COVID virus. Mindy: Oh no. Sy Hoekstra: I've been okay, don't worry. It's been a mild cold for me. Welcome Allison. And so I will sound nasally, but [laughs] that's all. And so I guess we wanna talk a little bit about that, and then we wanted to get into, assuming people don't have questions. At any point anybody can interrupt with questions that they have, you put in the chat, or you can just join the conversation and ask questions. So we wanna talk about what it means to be a peacemaker in this time. And then also, a little bit about interesting things that have been happening around, like where voting demographics and stuff with the with the Trump campaign. So Jonathan, I think you had some thoughts to get us started on what you think it means to follow Jesus' instructions to be a peacemaker in a time that is as unpeaceful as this. So [laughs] do you wanna get us going? Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think we may have talked about this a little bit on the podcast last week, just about how the invitation from culture, particularly the people texting me to give to campaigns [laughter] and emailing me. I got a text, it literally said, “We have texted you six times. You have not made a donation.” And I was like, “That is true, I have not made a donation [laughs]. I did not know you had texted me six times.” But Walz wanted me to know that. But the feeling is that I should be afraid, and then as Sy mentioned on the podcast, is that his sense is that he should be cynical. And so this invitation to cynicism and to fear, and just no. Jesus says no to that [laughs]. So what does it look like to be hopeful and have our hope be set on the hope that does not disappoint in that way, and then that we can ask questions and be introspective, and do the radical interrogation that is necessary to follow Jesus in ways that are transformative and helpful in a world that is fractured and falling apart, and not be cynical. And so, I don't know if you all have thoughts about that or feelings about that, but how are you pushing towards hope when you're pressed to be afraid, and then how are you, or do you have questions about leaning into radical interrogation and asking good, hard, deep questions without slipping into cynicism? I have thoughts, but that was something I wanted to open up with, particularly in light of CNN, and a certain rally that happened in New York City two days ago. Does anybody not know what I'm talking about when I say the rally? Sy Hoekstra: You might as well just say because people listen to it later, so [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Okay, great. So there was a… shoot, what's his name? Shoot. Donald Trump [laughter] had a rally. Sy Hoekstra: What's his name. Old What's His Name? Jonathan Walton: Well, because I was writing another… so I did not write this blurb. This will not show up in the newsletter, but I was trying to write, and it turned into too many links about the Nazi rally from the 1930s at Madison Square Garden, and that comparison to the rally that happened yesterday, and like they're strikingly similar. Also the similarities between Elon Musk and Henry Ford and their anti-Semitism racism, but that's an essay, friends. That's not a blurb in our newsletter, and takes more time and energy than I have right now. But all that to say, Donald Trump was at Madison Square Garden, and he did a rally there were however many thousands of people there. And it was littered with racist, xenophobic nationalists just… it was a lot. It was a lot of them in one speech with lots of people. So I honestly can't tell you what other content was there, because there were so many groups that got kind of called out, which was similar to Trump's presidency. But I think the invitation from that is to be afraid and then to be cynical, because it's quite likely that he could win. And so that feels for me particularly pertinent to present to being hopeful and present to asking good, hard questions and loving the Lord with my mind in that way. So yeah, any thoughts, comments, puzzles that you'd like to share Allison sighed. I mean [laughs], Mindy sighed. And David looks very reflective [laughs]. So feel free to share about that, what you all are thinking and feeling. David, looks like you almost started. Did you have anything to share? No? Alright. Making Peace Involves Taking Power Dynamics into Account Sy Hoekstra: Okay. I could talk a little bit, Jonathan. The guy who spoke, the guy who most of the comments that the media is focusing on, was

Today, Jonathan and Sy speak with author and housing advocate Kevin Nye about the Church and homelessness. We get into: -        The ineffective housing policies Christians often promote -        The bad theology behind those policies -        A run-in Kevin had with institutional resistance to his view that governments shouldn’t criminalize homelessness -        How churches can get things right in ministries to unhoused people -        Plus, hear our thoughts on the interview, -        A discussion of how we are resisting the negative ways the election is trying to shape us mentally and spiritually -        And our thoughts on all the discourse around Ta-Nehisi Coates’ controversial new book Mentioned in the episode: -        Kevin’s article on Christians mistakenly rejecting housing-first policies -        Josiah Haken’s book, Neighbors with No Doors -        Kevin’s article on Christianity Today’s coverage of homelessness -        His article in RNS about a Supreme Court case on unhoused people’s constitutional rights -        His book, Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness -        His Substack, Who Is My Neighbor? -        Ta-Nehisi Coates’ new book, The Message -        Our newsletter with links to a couple of Coates’ interviews Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Kevin Nye: If you're an average middle class American Christian and you want to become wealthy, have a private jet, a mansion, here's your spiritual steps. Get closer to Jesus, you'll be rewarded with physical wealth. Well, if that's true, the opposite of that would be true, which is that if you are in deep dire poverty, it must mean that you're that much farther from Jesus. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Intro and Housekeeping Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton. Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra, today is gonna be a great one for you. We have a conversation that we're gonna have before we get into our interview, kind of about the election. A little bit of a catch up, since this is actually going to be our last show before the presidential election, which now that I say it into a microphone, is a little bit scary [laughter]. We're gonna be having a conversation today with author, theologian and housing activist Kevin Nye. I've been looking forward to this one for a long time. Basically, the church is extremely involved in housing policy in America, and we are often going about it the wrong way, and that's often because of a lot of bad theology and some falsehoods that we believe about unhoused people, and so Kevin will help us get deep into that. He's a great resource and a great person to talk about it with, as well as some of the more systemic issues of why we have such an entrenched way of thinking about unhoused people. You'll be able to hear Jonathan and my thoughts about the interview afterwards, and we will get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we go a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week we're talking all about Ta-Nehisi Coates and his new book, The Message and some of the discussions that have been happening around it. Also, one quick note. My voice might sound a little groggy, because about 12 hours ago, I was at game one of the American League Championship Series [laughter] and I screamed my face off. Is that a wise thing for a podcaster to do before recording? Maybe not, but I trust that you all will forgive me [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Yes, and for the uninitiated, we’re talking about baseball [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: Yes, that's a good point. American League Championship Series, that's a baseball series [laughter]. Jonathan Walton: But before we get into all that, please friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and everything we do here at KTF Press. We've been creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics and culture, and that helps you seek Jesus and confront injustice. You've been listening for a while or the first time, you need to know we're resisting the idols of the American church by elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who narrow it to sin and salvation. The two of us have [laughs] a lot of experience doing this, have been practicing this in community for a while, and as Maya Angelou would say, we're always practicing Christianity. So if you wanna do that, you could do that with us. We'd love for you to become a paid subscriber. You get all the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats, and you can comment on posts and more. So again, go to KTFPress.com to join us and become a paid subscriber. Sy Hoekstra: A couple of quick announcements before we get into everything. In two weeks there will not be an episode. That's just a couple days after the election. We're gonna let things settle a little bit. Jonathan Walton: Hopefully so. Sy Hoekstra: I mean, hopefully settle a little bit before [laughter] we have our sort of clean, edited podcast discussion about the election. However, we are going to do something a little bit different the day after the election. So that'll be Wednesday, November 6th at 1 pm. We are going to be having a Substack live conversation. So that means basically, if you have the Substack app, you will be able to watch us just have a live conversation about the election, what happened the night before, what we're thinking, how we can move forward faithfully now that the voting is done, and all of the potential chaos that comes after that. If you don't have the app, you can download it on the App Store or the Google Play Store. Anybody who's on our email list will get an email notification or a push notification from the app when we start. So if you're not on our email list, go to KTFPress.com and sign up. Even just the free email list, you'll get that notification. The email will have a link to download the app if you don't have it. So Substack live Wednesday, November 6th, at 1 pm to talk about the election. A little bit more raw, unfiltered, that sort of thing [laughter]. And then we'll have a finale episode, we'll announce the date later once we have that set. You'll be able to comment in the chat of the Substack live, so you can put your comments and your questions there. So come prepared to dialog a little bit. We're excited to try this new feature that Substack has rolled out. Also our next Zoom chat for subscribers will be this upcoming Tuesday, October 29th at 1 pm. So if you want to join in on that, please become a paid subscriber. If you already are a paid subscriber, then the link to register for that is in your email already. Go back to your emails from us and check for it, submit your questions. We have had some really great conversations at the four or five of these that we've done so far, and we look forward to another one this Tuesday. How Has the Election Been Shaping Us? And How Are We Resisting? Sy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan, before the interview, we're gonna start off with an election question that will kind of let us give some of our final thoughts going into actual voting day. This is a question that you came up with, and I like it a lot, actually. Jonathan, how has this election been trying to shape you and how have you been resisting it? Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I think just hanging out in this space of formation, like we're impacted by things around us, and it's literally making us into new people or different kinds of people. I have an injury in my hip, and it's like, I ran marathons and did lots of sports and work, and so my hip is shaped differently because of the pressure that I put on it. Our Political Culture Tries to Instill Fear, but Jesus Doesn’t Jonathan Walton: And so I think that culture is trying to shape me into an anxious, fearful person, because violent crime can be down in the United States, but my fears about my daughter getting older and going to the train, I'm terrified. Sy Hoekstra: Really? Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. It's terrible. It's terrible. Sy Hoekstra: Interesting. Jonathan Walton: People are like, “Oh yeah, my kid walked to the train,” I'm like, clutch my pearls. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Oh, you're one of those New York City parents. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. And some of its familiarity, I never did that. That just wasn't my reality. I think it's more that than all of the fears that people have. It's just unfamiliar to me. And so I think that the Democrats would love for me to fear the apocalypse, and the Republicans would love for me to fear the apocalypse [laughter]. Sy Hoekstra:

On today’s episode, we discuss the ways our faith has changed as we’ve grown in discipleship and justice work. Our spiritual practices, as well as our relationships with church, God, and the non-Christian world have all transformed over time, sometimes in surprising ways that would have made us uncomfortable in our earlier years as followers of Jesus. It’s a personal and instructive conversation on how to grow up with Jesus that we know will be helpful for a lot of people. Plus, after that conversation we get into the war in Sudan and why it’s an important topic for us to learn about and engage with. Mentioned in the episode: -            The episode of the Movement Memos podcast about the war in Sudan -            The link to donate to the Sudan Solidarity Collective via PayPal Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Jonathan Walton: I'm trying to live in the reality that God actually loves me and he actually loves other people, and that's just true. And to live in that quote- unquote, belovedness is really, really, really difficult in a extractivist, culturally colonized, post-plantation, capitalistic society. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: It's really, really hard when every single thing that I was raised to do goes against, just receiving anything. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra. Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Sy Hoekstra: This week we have a great conversation. There's no guest this week, it's just Jonathan and I. And we are actually going to be talking about something that we originally were gonna talk to Lisa about in the last episode, but we ran out of time [laughter]. And we thought it would be, actually it was worth taking the time to talk about this in a full episode format. And the topic is basically this, as people grow not just normally in their faith, but also in the kind of work that we're doing, resisting the idols of America and confronting injustice and that sort of thing in their faith, your personal spiritual life tends to change [laughter], to put it mildly. And we wanted to talk about that. It's something that we don't necessarily hear a lot of people talking about as much and I think it's something that people are kind of concerned about. Like it's in the back of people's heads when they start to dive into these justice issues. It's something that I think conservative Christianity has put in the back of your heads [laughs], like your personal walk with Jesus, or your something like that is going to falter if you stray down this road. And so we wanna talk about how things have changed with us, and be as open and honest about that as possible, with our spiritual practices, with our relationship with God, with our relationship with church and kind of the world outside. And then we're gonna get into our segment Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week, we will be talking about a really fascinating and informative podcast on the war that is currently happening in Sudan that has been going on for about a year and a half. If you don't know a lot about that war, or if you just want some more insight into what's going on there, please stay tuned for that. It'll be an interesting conversation, for sure. So we're going to get into all of that in a minute. I think this is gonna be a really fruitful and helpful conversation for a lot of people. Before we jump in though, Jonathan, Jonathan Walton: Hey friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and everything we do at KTF Press. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on faith, politics and culture and help you seek Jesus and confront injustice, that's so desperately needed today. We're resisting the idols of the American church by elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who might narrow it to sin and salvation or some other small, little box. Jesus' gospel is bigger than that. The two of us have a lot of experience [laughs] doing this in community and individually. We've been friends for a good long time, and so I hope that you can come to us and trust us for good conversation, dialogue and prayerful, deliberate action. So become a paid subscriber, and get all the bonus episodes to this show, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats. You can comment on posts and a lot more. So again, go to KTFPress.com, join us and become a paid subscriber. And if you really wanna double down, become a founding member. Thanks, y'all. Sy Hoekstra: You get a free book if you're a founding member. So that’s… Jonathan Walton: You do get a free book. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Because we publish books too. I guess we didn't… we have to tell people that. Jonathan Walton: That’s true. Sy Hoekstra: If you're listening, if this is your first episode, you didn't know that. We’ve published a couple of books. Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: Alright Jonathan, let's dive in. Let's talk about, as you have grown over the past however many years since you've been doing this kind of work, which for you is what now, 15? No, almost 15. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: More than 15. It’s more than 15 years. Jonathan Walton: It's more than 15. It'd probably be like… I was trying to reflect on this. I think I seriously stepped into this stuff in 2005 when I wrote that first poem about child soldiers and sex trafficking victims and was like, “I wanna do this, because Jesus loves me, and Jesus loves all people.” And so yeah, almost 20 years. Sy Hoekstra: Was that “Decisions?” Is that the poem? Jonathan Walton: I think it was actually “Invisible Children.” That poem. Sy Hoekstra: Okay. Literally because of the documentary Invisible Children. Jonathan Walton: Yes. That was the first advocacy poem that I wrote. Sy Hoekstra: So since then, how have your individual spiritual practices changed your scripture reading, that sort of thing? The kind of thing that at one point we might have called our quiet time, or our daily whatever. Where are you at? Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Absolutely. So I do not have daily quiet times. How do I explain this? When the Psalms say, “write the words of God on your hearts that you might not sin against him,” I think with all of us, it's kind of like building a habit. So I read a lot of scripture when I was a kid. I read a lot of scripture when I was a college student. And I think it was because I literally needed flesh and bones on just the air of my faith. And I think literally sitting there and listening to sermons for hours as I go about my day in my room and not study in college, or me and my brother would do [laughs] these weird things because we lived in the South and had nothing to do on this 30-acre farm, is we memorized the entire Charlton Heston film, The Ten Commandments. So me and my brother literally memorized the entire six hour epic that is The Ten Commandments. And so I just had this desire, and I think habit of just like memorizing and learning about God because the context that you're in. And so I think that there was a season in my life where sitting in the word of God was just a regular practice. And now I would say, just to overtake scripture, scripture is for me a process of recall and reflection. Like I have to give a talk next week on racism and racial reconciliation and justice. And if you had said to me, “Jonathan, what passage are you gonna speak from?” Like, because I've studied Genesis 1, because I've studied Isaiah 61, because I've studied Isaiah 58, because I've leaned into John 4, because I'm leaning in to Luke 4, I can grab from any of these places because it's almost like riding a bike in that way. I don't have to ride a bike every day to know how to ride a bike. And so I think if you're sitting there thinking to yourself, “I don't do a daily quiet time,” I don't know that you are negatively impacted. I know that you may be shaped differently, but we don't lose God, just like we don't lose the knowledge of something in that way. So I think Scripture for me has become more of a remembering and reflective process, rather than an active like, “Oh man, I need to know more.” And I think if we do scripture prayer, so let's talk about prayer, liturgy has taken on a more significant part of my life. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Jonathan Walton: Partially because I've stepped out of the, “let's prioritize this as better” box. So when I grew up in the South, I was like, oh, I go to a Black southern Baptist church, not a Southern Baptist Church. Let's be clear about that. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Sponta

Today, we’re talking with veteran activist and theologian, the one and only, Lisa Sharon Harper! The conversation covers: -        Lisa’s journey finding Jesus outside of Whiteness and White evangelicalism -        The centrality of advocating for political and institutional policy change to our faith in Jesus -        How respecting the image of God in all people is the starting point for following Jesus to shalom -        The unavoidable job we have to speak truth, even when it is costly -        Where Lisa finds her hope and motivation to keep going -        And after that, we reflect on the interview and then talk all things Springfield, Ohio and Haitian immigrants. Mentioned on the episode: -            Lisa’s website, lisasharonharper.com/ -            Lisa’s Instagram and Facebook -            The Freedom Road Podcast -            Lisa’s books, Fortune and The Very Good Gospel -            Make a donation to The Haitian Community Support and Help Center in Springfield, Ohio via PayPal at [email protected]. Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Lisa Sharon Harper: I would lose my integrity if I was silent in the face of the breaking of shalom, which I learned in Bosnia and Croatia and Serbia, is built on earth through structures. It doesn't just come because people know Jesus. Two thirds of the people in the Bosnian war knew Jesus. The Croats were Christian and the Serbs were Orthodox Christian, and yet they killed each other. Massacred each other. Unfortunately, knowing Jesus is not enough if you have shaped your understanding of Jesus according to the rules and norms of empire. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton. Sy Hoekstra: And I am Sy Hoekstra. We have a great one for you today. We are talking to veteran organizer and theologian Lisa Sharon Harper, someone who a lot of you probably know and who was pretty big in both of our individual kind of stories and development as people who care about faith and justice when we were younger people, which you will hear about as we talk to her. We are going to be talking to her about the centrality of our voting and policy choices to our witness as Christians, the importance of integrity and respecting the image of God in all people when making difficult decisions about where to spend your resources as an activist, where Lisa gets her hope and motivation and a whole lot more. And then after the interview, hear our reactions to it. And we're also going to be getting into our segment, Which Tab Is Still Open, where we dive a little bit deeper into one of the recommendations from our weekly newsletter that we send out to our subscribers. This week it will be all about Haitian immigrants to America in Springfield, Ohio. You will want to hear that conversation. But before we get started, Jonathan. Jonathan Walton: Please friends, remember to go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber to support this show and get access to everything that we do. We're creating media that centers personal and informed discussions on politics, faith and culture that helps you seek Jesus and confront injustice. We are resisting the idols of the American church by centering and elevating marginalized voices and taking the entirety of Jesus' gospel more seriously than those who narrow it to sin and salvation. The two of us have a lot of experience doing this individually and in community, and we've been friends [laughs] for a good long time. So you can trust it will be honest, sincere, and have some good things to say along the way. If you become a paid subscriber, you'll get access to all of our bonus content, access to our monthly subscriber Zoom chats with me and Sy, and the ability to comment on posts and chat with us. So again, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber today. Sy Hoekstra: Our guest today, again, Lisa Sharon Harper, the president and founder of Freedom Road, a groundbreaking consulting group that crafts experiences to bring common understanding and common commitments that lead to common action toward a more just world. Lisa is a public theologian whose writing, speaking, activism and training has sparked and fed the fires of reformation in the church from Ferguson and Charlottesville to South Africa, Brazil, Australia and Ireland. Lisa's book, Fortune: How Race Broke My Family and the World, and How to Repair It All was named one of the best books of 2022 and the book before that, The Very Good Gospel, was named 2016 Book of the Year by The Englewood Review of Books. Lisa is the host of the Freedom Road Podcast, and she also writes for her Substack, The Truth Is… Jonathan Walton: Alright, let's jump into the interview. [The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Lisa Sharon Harper, thank you so much for joining us on Shake the Dust. Lisa Sharon Harper: Yay, I'm so excited to be here, and I'm here with a little bit of a Demi Moore rasp to my voice. So I'm hoping it'll be pleasant to the ears for folks who are coming, because I got a little sick, but I'm not like really sick, because I'm on my way, I'm on the rebound. Sy Hoekstra: So you told us you got this at the DNC, is that right? Lisa Sharon Harper: Yes, I literally, literally, that's like what, almost three weeks ago now? Sy Hoekstra: Oh my gosh. Jonathan Walton: You’ve got a DNC infection. That's what that is. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Lisa Sharon Harper: I have a DNC cough. I have a DNC cough, that's funny. Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: So before we jump into our questions, I wanted to take a momentary trip down memory lane, because I have no idea if you remember this or not. Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay. Sy Hoekstra: But in January of 2008, you led a weekend retreat for a college Christian fellowship that Jonathan and I were both in. Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah, I do remember. Sy Hoekstra: You do remember this? Okay. Lisa Sharon Harper: Absolutely. Jonathan Walton: [laughs]. Lisa Sharon Harper: I remember almost every time I've ever spoken anywhere. Sy Hoekstra: Wow, okay. Lisa Sharon Harper: I really do. And I remember that one, and I do remember you guys being there. Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Jonathan Walton: Yes. Lisa Sharon Harper: Okay. Jonathan Walton: Yeah. Lisa Sharon Harper: You remember that. That's amazing. Sy Hoekstra: No, no, no. Jonathan Walton: Oh yeah. Sy Hoekstra: Hang on. Wait a minute [laughter]. We don’t just remember it. Because, so you gave this series of talks that ended up being a big part of your book, The Very Good Gospel. Lisa Sharon Harper: Yeah. Sy Hoekstra: And you talked specifically about the difference between genuine and pseudo-community and the need to really address each other's problems that we face, bear each other's burdens, that sort of thing. And you did a session, which I'm sure you've done with other groups, where you split us up into racial groups. So we sat there with White, Black, and Latine, and Asian, and biracial groups, and we had a real discussion about race in a way that the community had absolutely never had before [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Yep. Sy Hoekstra: And it actually, it is the opening scene of Jonathan's book. I don't know if you knew that. Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God, I didn't know that. Jonathan Walton: It is. Lisa Sharon Harper: Which one? Jonathan Walton: Twelve Lies. Lisa Sharon Harper: Wow, I didn't know that. Oh my gosh, I missed that. Okay. Sy Hoekstra: So it was a… Jonathan put it before, it was a formative moment for everybody and a transformative moment for some of us [laughter] … Lisa Sharon Harper: Oooooo, Oh my goodness. Jonathan Walton: Yes. Sy Hoekstra: …in that we learned a lot about ourselves and what we thought about race, what other people thought about race. I will tell you that in the five minutes after the session broke up, like ended, it was the first time that my now wife ever said to me, “Hey, you said something racist to me that I didn't like.” [laughs] And then, because of all the conversation we just had, I responded miraculously with the words, “I'm sorry.” [laughter]. Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my God! Sy Hoekstra: And then we went from there. Lisa Sharon Harper: Miraculously [laughs]. That’s funny. Sy Hoekstra: So I have lots of friends that we can talk about this session with to this day, and they still remember it as transformative. Jonathan Walton: Yes. Lisa Sharon Harper: Oh my Gosh. Wow. Sy Hoekstra: All of that, just to lead into my first question which is this, a lot of people in 2016 started seeing kind of the things about White evangelicalism that indicated t

Today’s bonus episode is the recording of our most recent monthly subscriber Zoom conversations. This is the second of these we’ve released (the first was here). Give them a listen and join us for the next one! In this episode, the group discusses: -        Books and other resources that have been particularly helpful in spiritual formation -        Emotional health and authenticity in discipleship -        Following the way of Jesus over believing correct beliefs -        How discipleship includes things like the economic choices of Christian institutions -        Whether gender makes a difference in how we follow Jesus -        And a lot more! Mentioned on the episode: -        Emotionally Healthy Spirituality by Peter Scazzero -        The Deeply Formed Life by Rich Villodas -        John Mark Comers book, Practicing the Way -        Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s book Life Together -        The Bible Project -        Lindsay Olesberg’s book The Bible Study Handbook -        Matthew Desmond’s book Poverty, by America -        Sy’s essay, “I Am Not a (Real) Man” -        The Confession of Evangelical Conviction, and the associated resources -        The video we produced for the Confession Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Sy Hoekstra. -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy. -        Production by Sy and our incredible subscribers. Transcript [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes, the first three ascending and the last three descending – F#, B#, E, D#, B – with a keyboard pad playing the note B in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra. This is a bonus episode. It is our September conversation that just happened on Monday. We turned this one around pretty quickly. This is our conversation, we had some stuff planned for it that we were gonna talk about. But as always, we let the questions from the subscribers, like you, all of you listening to this bonus episode for subscribers only, direct our conversation. So the conversation ended up being a lot about spiritual formation and all kinds of, like our, Jonathan and mine, some other people on the call's influences, and just day to day walking with Jesus, what that looks like. We also got a little bit into ideas about economic spiritual formation and kind of the gender issues around spiritual formation and whether or not there is anything relevant that we care to talk about [laughs] when it comes to gender differences in following Jesus. Before we get into this, you all are our lovely subscribers. I'm not gonna pitch you on KTF Press or anything like that, like I would at this point in the podcast normally. I'm just gonna ask you to please go ahead and tell a friend about this show. Just tell somebody. It is one of the best ways to spread news, the word about a podcast. It's the best ways to support us. You, somebody who enjoys this, telling somebody else who you think might enjoy this, about why you enjoy this. That would be enormously helpful to us. If there's anybody you’ve been thinking of texting or letting know about this show, please go ahead and do it. Point them to KTFPress.com, or to Shake the Dust, wherever they get their podcasts. That's all I'm gonna say before we jump into this conversation. It's a Zoom conversation. So the quality is what the quality is, I cleaned it up as much as I could. It sounds not bad at all, honestly, but it's still a Zoom conversation, so I'm just telling you that. Alright, here we go, getting into the conversation starting now. [The intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Do you wanna say Drexel’s question? Sy Hoekstra: Well, yeah. It was just asking about books that were important for us for spiritual formation, or just books that have influenced us in general. Jonathan, I know one of the bigger spiritual formation ones for us is the same, but do you wanna go first? Jonathan Walton: Yeah. I'll jump in. The one that is not the same as Sy’s [laughter], I think is actually the Bible. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs] Well, okay. I have read that too. Jonathan Walton: Yeah, but I'll say, and this is the reason why. I had a conversation with… for 16 years, I've been on staff within InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, the large campus Christian ministry. And for 15 of those years, I led the experiential discipleship program. So one-day, week-long, month-long, year-round programs where people come to learn how to live out their faith in an integrated, practical way. And a couple years I had a partnership with a Christian bookstore, and I'll never forget going to the bookstore, the guy who runs the bookstore, super Christian, seems to me. He just takes out the Bible and he's like, “Have you ever read John 3:16?” I'm like, “Yeah, for God so loved the world.” I do the Christian Sunday school answer. But then he has something called a keyword Bible. And then he's like, “Do you know what the word God is in this part? I’m like, “No.” So then he's like, “Okay, it's this. And do you know love, do you know that?” I’m like, “Oh, okay, agape, and something else.” It's like, “Oh, okay.” And then, the world. And I'm like, “The world?” And he's like, “The word world is the Greek word cosmos. And it's like God's ordered purpose.” It's like, so if God, the Creator of the universe, loving, sovereign being, created, so made all that there is, the world. For God so loved the world, so God, this agape, all-encompassing love. And then cosmos is actually his ordered purpose. So when you read the verse, the rest is like, oh, so Jesus, perhaps I have been reading this verse too small because I thought Jesus, the world was just us people. But if he died for his ordered purposes, then that changes the entire latter half of the last 65 years of evangelicalism in the United States, post Billy Graham, creating effectively this barcode, what Lisa Sharon Harper would call a barcode faith, where we could just pray a prayer and be done. That is a very recent development in Christianity over the last 2000 years. And so I was like, I need to go read the Bible, and I need to go know what the words mean [laughter]. Not just how I interpret them so quickly, because I don't speak Greek, I don't read Hebrew, all those things. So let me go and do that. And that, so having a keyword Bible, which a New American Standard Bible, and then having an NIV Bible to a thought for thought translation. And then, now there's the First Nations version of the Bible from IVP. To read the creation narrative from the First Nations Bible is different than reading it from Genesis. So like… Sy Hoekstra: Well, wait, except the First Nation’s Bible doesn't have the creation narrative… Jonathan Walton: It does, you’re right. Sy Hoekstra: …because it's only the New Testament [laughter]. Helen: Right. Only the New Testament, yes. Jonathan Walton: You’re right. I'm talking about the prologue. So there's a prologue. Sy Hoekstra: Oh, yeah, that's right. Helen: Yes. Jonathan Walton: And that paragraph, it says, the Great Spirit created us to steward in harmony with the Creator. And I was like, “Huh, I'm supposed to be concerned about harmony as I have dominion?” That's different. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: That changes the quote- unquote, colonization and all that kind of stuff, showing up somewhere to spread the gospel. So I'm like, “God, how do I not subdue my children? How do I not dominate the people around me? How do I try to live in Christ centered love and harmony?” So the Bible in that way, just reading it in that way. And then Sy will have his own journey in talking about this. But the other book that's probably changed my life the most is Pete Scazzero’s Emotionally Healthy Spirituality, which is the prequel of one of the books that formed Rich Villodas to write The Deeply Formed Life. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Jonathan Walton: And so a bunch of people from New Life Fellowship are kind of downstream of emotionally healthy spirituality. Being able to do that I think, it's like spiritual formation light basically. Like he's taking quote- unquote the Desert Fathers, taking a bunch of practices that are very much rooted in Catholicism, like the Benedictine life and things like that, and kind of popularizing in a way that evangelicals and Protestants who are detached from that tradition can have access to. And so that book changed my life and basically created a lot of the emotionally healthy activist work that I do now, because being an activist in the traditional sense of marches, protests, boycotts, mobilization, when we do that from a place rooted in Jesus, it should look different. Which is why MLK, I think, endures in that way. Because he's pulling from a well that is deeper than, “I can speak really well and I'm from the south. Listen to me.” He's pulling from the gospel. He's pulling from the theology that started when the Spirit came down at Pentecost. So I would say those two books. So scripture, but engaging with it in a more holistic way, and then Emotionally Healthy Spirituality. I could say some more. They're back there, as you can see, there's some. But I think if I was to name

Today, we’re talking all about the recently-released Confession of Evangelical Conviction: -        What the confession is and what it says -        Why we signed it and got involved promoting it -        How the American church got to the point where a confession of very basic political theology like this is necessary -        And after that conversation, we talk the many layers of Christian nationalism involved in the debacle at Trump’s recent trip to Arlington National Cemetery Mentioned on the episode: -        The Confession of Evangelical Conviction, and the associated resources -        The video we produced to promote the confession Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript Introduction [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Sy Hoekstra: When we first started doing this work and we published our anthology, we went on a couple of podcasts about it. A common thing that people asked of us at the time was, where do you think the White American church, where do you think the like 81 percent of the church, the White evangelical church that voted for Trump is going? And the first time I said it, I sort of surprised myself and I was like, look, it's being cut off the vine for not bearing good fruit and thrown in the fire. There's been a long time coming of a divorce, like a complete split between White evangelicals in America and followers of Jesus. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra. Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. Sy Hoekstra: We have a great show for you today. We're doing something a little bit different. We are talking about a bit of a movement, a little, a confession that we have signed onto that we're a part of that we're producing some media around that you may have seen by the time this episode comes out. And it's a confession of sort of evangelical faithfulness to Jesus in a political context. And it is probably a little bit off the beaten path of kind of some of the political commentary that we normally engage in. And we wanted to talk to you about why we think it is a good and strategic thing for us to do during this season, give you some of our thinking behind how we kind of strategize politically and think about ourselves as part of a larger theological and political movement. So I think this will be a really good conversation. We're also gonna get into our Which Tab Is Still Open and talk to you about Christian nationalism and whiteness through the lens of Donald Trump doing absurd things at Arlington National Cemetery [laughs]. Jonathan Walton: Yes. Sy Hoekstra: But we will get into all of that in a moment. Before we do, Jonathan Walton. Jonathan Walton: Hey, remember, if you like what you hear and read from us at KTF Press and would like for it to continue beyond the election season, I need you to do two things. Go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber. Now, you could also tell other people to do that as well if you've already done that. We've got a ways to go if we're going to have enough people to sustain the work, but we think it's valuable, and I hope you do too. So go to KTFPress.com, sign up, and that gets you all of the bonus episodes of this show, access to our monthly Zoom calls with the two of us and more. So again, KTFPress.com. Become a paid subscriber. What is the Evangelical Confession of Conviction, and Why Is KTF Involved? Sy Hoekstra: All right, Jonathan, let's get started in our conversation. We've signed onto this document called The Confession of Evangelical Conviction. We've produced some media around it. First of all, what is it and what does it say? Some Basic Political Theology That We Need to Restate at This Cultural Moment with Unity Jonathan Walton: [laughs] Well, I think the question of what it is, it's words [Sy laughs]. Like there's these things that we put together, it's words. And I think the reason that it's powerful is because of when and how it's said. And so these are basic confessions that every Christian should believe, but it seems like the reason that we're doing it right now and that I've signed onto is because there are seasons when the discipleship and formation of the church needs to be plain and centered. And so being able to say, “I give allegiance to Christ alone,” and then have that be reverberated across denominations, across movements of quote- unquote, Christians around the country that are usually so disparate, they usually don't communicate, they usually disagree with each other in very public ways, to say, “Hey, hey, hey.” We need people to understand who don't follow Jesus, that when Gandhi said, “I like Christ, I don't like Christians,” that's part of the problem. We are part of that problem. Where we don't articulate what we know, what we believe, what we know to be true. I think this is an articulation of that, speaking particularly to a cultural and political and social moment that needs the clarity that Jesus can bring. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. So this is just to get into the weeds of it. It's a confession signed by I would say, the sort of extreme ends, at least to the people that we know about right now, I don't know who's gonna sign it in future, but center-right to more progressive left. And the basic confessions, like the seven statements of the confession are, “We give our allegiance to Jesus Christ alone. We will lead with love, not fear. We submit to the truth of Scripture. We believe the Gospel heals every worldly division. We are committed to the prophetic mission of the Church. We value every person as created in God's image.” And “We recognize godly leaders by their character.” So this is very basic theology [laughs] like you said. And you got a little bit at why it matters to put this out there, why we are involved. I agree with you. I think it's more about the context and it's also about who is saying it more than it is about the content. Because, and by the way, we should say we are giving you our reasons for signing this and why we think it's important. This is not… like there's a group of people that were involved in writing it, so there's lots of people involved who we don't know precisely why they signed [laughs] or precisely why the people who wrote it decided it was necessary. We're talking to you about our opinions. So to me, if you have something that says we pledge our allegiance to Christ alone, that's a rebuke of Christian nationalism to me. We judge godly leaders by their character, that's a rebuke of people who argue that Trump is a godly leader or a leader who has been appointed by God in some way or another. So those are important things to say. And it's with people across a pretty big spectrum of, as I said, the political range. Would Jonathan and I go a lot further than this if we said what we thought is important for political discipleship? Yes, we would, and you know that, because you've heard our other episodes. Or if you haven't, go listen to our other episodes [laughs]. We would go a lot further than that, yes. But we think, I think it's good to work with a broad range of people during a political campaign. Reaching a Broad Audience and Pushing the American Church to Change Sy Hoekstra: Like I think when you're talking about discipleship at a moment when tensions are extremely high around theology and politics, it is good to do these kinds of things where you are trying to scale your efforts. Where you're trying to reach as many people as possible in the hopes that you will change some minds, both so that they will more faithfully follow Jesus, and in this specific context, so they won't vote for Donald Trump. That's one of my personal reasons for being involved in this [laughs]. And that's how you do campaigns in general. That's how campaigns operate. You try and call as many people as you can. You try and put commercials out there as widely as you can toward your targeted audience, whatever. Not in the hopes that the vast majority of the people who see it are going to suddenly be like, “Oh my goodness, I agree with everything you say,” but in the hopes that you'll reach enough of the people whose minds you can change to make a difference in their decision when it comes to November. You will reach them and you will start to be one of the people who affects their choices, is what I'm trying to say. So I don't know, that's kind of the strategy of it from my point of view. It is a similar way of thinking to me from the anthology. When we published the anthology four years ago, it was different because we were letting people say their own beliefs. And it was people from all over the spectrum kind of saying why they weren't voting for Trump in whatever way they saw fit [laughs], on whatever topic they saw fit. That was our approach. But this

Today, our episode’s all about discipleship around political engagement, based on a series of Bible studies Jonathan and his team at his real job recently created for this election season and beyond. Some points we hit: -        Why it is essential for our political action to understand  we were not created for this world -        Why followers of Jesus won’t overemphasize the importance of political victories and losses -        The reality that we are all connected to each other and God desires everyone’s political liberation -        And, after that discussion, we dive into a recommendation from one of our recent newsletters on the fallout from Israel’s torture of Hamas operatives Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript Introduction [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Jonathan Walton: If we are clear-eyed about the brokenness of the world, I would love for us to be as clear-eyed about the bigness of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I don't think our concept of sin and our concept of redemption is actually mature enough to deal with the problems of the world. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting injustice. I'm Jonathan Walton. Sy Hoekstra: And I'm Sy Hoekstra. I'm so excited about what we're gonna be talking about today. We have concluded our series of interviews with authors from the anthology that we published in 2020 about Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. For the next several five or six episodes until the election, you will be hearing more from the two of us. We'll probably have a couple more interviews, but it will not be from those authors. But today, we are jumping into something that I think is very core to what we do at KTF Press. We're talking about political discipleship and how the ways that some stuff that we maybe in some churches relegate to the realm of personal salvation, like the incarnation and the death and resurrection of Jesus, actually have a whole lot to say about how we engage politically. But before we get to all of that, Jonathan. Jonathan Walton: Remember, if you like what you hear and what you read from KTF Press, and would like for it to continue beyond this election season, please go to KTFPress.com and become a paid subscriber and encourage your friends to subscribe as well. We've got a ways to go if we're gonna have enough people to sustain this work, but we believe this work is valuable for us and for you, and so we hope that you do too. Go to KTFPress.com, that'll get you the bonus episodes of this show, access to monthly Zoom chats with the two of us and more, but only if you are subscribed. So again, go to KTFPress.com, subscribe today. The Bible Studies Jonathan’s Team Created about Christian Political Engagement Sy Hoekstra: All right. So Jonathan, this conversation is actually coming from some work that you are doing in your regular job with InterVarsity. First of all, remind people what you do with InterVarsity [laughter], and then tell people about these resources that you've produced and kind of what the goal of them is. Jonathan Walton: So I'm a Senior Resource Specialist with InterVarsity. And what that looks like is when there are some significant problems, then those things get sent up to the discipleship and leadership team to think about, and one of the things in our sandbox is political discipleship. And so for the last six months, we've been working on a curriculum that folks will be able to use to not just see and seek Jesus during this election season, but actually be formed into people who can see Jesus on the seat in our image as a seat of a stool with three legs, and on the seat. The Lord over our feelings, over our thoughts, over our actions, is Jesus. And so this five part Bible study really leans into that and prayerfully will push people to make that decision, to say, “Oh yes, if I'm a follower of Jesus, then my orthopathy, my orthodoxy and my orthopraxy will be under the Lordship of Jesus.” Sy Hoekstra: You just said three big words. I think a lot of people know that orthodoxy kind of means right belief, and orthopraxy kind of means right practice Jonathan Walton: Yep. Sy Hoekstra: Orthopathy, what does that mean? Jonathan Walton: Orthopathy, which most of us function on is our feelings and passions. So what does it look like for us to actually say, “I feel uncomfortable, I feel afraid, I feel sad.” And instead of acting out of that feeling and then forming a theology that justifies our actions that were based on our feelings of fear or anxiety or discomfort or loss of control, we actually said, “Oh, I feel afraid of this,” or “I feel uncomfortable about this, but I can actually put that fear, that discomfort, that anger, under the seat of Jesus,” and be able to have our thoughts and actions be in line with the kingdom of God, and not just in line with our deepest wounds or whims. Sy Hoekstra: Okay, so that is some helpful context. You have created these Bible studies as part of your job as a resource developer, and we will have links to those Bible studies that are available for free online. So if you wanna do a five session Bible study with a small group or whatever, you can go get Jonathan's stuff and talk about politics with your small group, which I think everybody should be doing right now [laughter], at least if you live in the United States. Not everybody that listens to the show is in the United States, but for all the Americans, go do that, please. Oh, and actually, sorry you didn't write these. You were part of the team that developed these. Jonathan Walton: Yes. Sy Hoekstra: The actual writing was done by other people, but you were very involved in the process. We Were Not Created for This World, and That Affects Our Politics Sy Hoekstra: So let's get into one of the main ideas here, which I think is, let's talk about some of the implications of the idea that we were not created for the world that we live in. This is kind of a big deal I think, in your thinking, and I would like you to tell us what, first of all, what kind of world were we created for, and then what does that imply for our politics? We Were Created for a World Where Everything Existed in Harmony Jonathan Walton: One of the things that gets lost in most of our theology about the quote- unquote, fall is that we don't engage as much with what the world could have looked like if we had not, quote- unquote, fallen. And so I like to think about every possible thing in the world that is broken and not working well, what if it had been working just fine? So let's imagine for a moment that work, like Adam and Eve in the Garden doing the stuff, was good. Like work was good. Let's imagine for a moment that a man never blamed the problem on a woman, and a woman never blamed the problem on the man. Let's imagine a world free of shame, jealousy, deceit and blaming. Let's lean into that slim window in Scripture and that slim window and stories that were passed down for generations, and generations where there was no deceit. We could know one another and be known. We could forgive, because I don't imagine that no one got hurt, but I imagine though, is people were quick to forgive and quick to ask for forgiveness. To be able to live in harmony with the world, that includes that big Shalom theology, where there's peace in me, there's peace between me and others, there's peace between me and creation, there's peace between me and God. There's reconciliation, there's Shalom there. And so since we do not have that world, the world that we currently live in is one that we will have constant dissonance with. We Must Be People Who Rejoice When Empires Fall Jonathan Walton: So fast forward all the way to Revelation 18,19, and 20, when quote unquote, Babylon, or the Empire is destroyed. And there are people that are weeping over Babylon, and there are people that are rejoicing that Babylon has been destroyed. Followers of Jesus need to be in the camp that says we are rejoicing that Babylon is destroyed. Hallelujah, salvation and glory be unto our God. If we are those people that say, “Ah, you know what? We're so sad that all the spices and all the products and all the slaves are no longer being brought to our shores to serve us,” then you suffer under the judgment of God. The judgment of God says these systems are unjust. A lot of followers of Jesus and other folks don't like to talk about the judgment of God, but I will be honest, I am totally fine talking about the judgment of God when talking about destroying unjust systems and structures in the world [laughs]. Sy Hoekstra: Yeah. Jonathan Walton: Like Jesus, let that come as quickly as possible. So in Amos via Martin Luther King, how most people recognize it, let justice roll down like a mighty stream. That's what we

Today, we talk with theologian and activist Jesse Wheeler about the rotten fruit of the West’s theology in Palestine and the broader region. We get into: -        How everyday Christians can tell the difference between good and bad theology -        Examples of the fruit of bad Western theology in Palestine and the region of the Middle East/North Africa -        How we must acknowledge the horrible effects of the Zionism on both sides of the political aisle, even while rejecting Trump -        What the political witness of Christians should be with respect to how we handle power -        And after the interview, Sy and Jonathan discuss the Christian nationalism and bigotry in faith leaders’ response to controversies at the Olympics Mentioned in the Episode -            Our anthology, Keeping the Faith -            Jesse’s essay from the anthology, “Bad Theology Kills” -            Jesse’s book, Serving a Crucified King -            Jesse’s organization, Friends of Sabeel North America -            The new Institute for the Study of Christian Zionism Credits -            Follow KTF Press on Facebook, Instagram, and Threads. Subscribe to get our bonus episodes and other benefits at KTFPress.com. -        Follow host Jonathan Walton on Facebook Instagram, and Threads. -        Follow host Sy Hoekstra on Mastodon. -        Our theme song is “Citizens” by Jon Guerra – listen to the whole song on Spotify. -        Our podcast art is by Robyn Burgess – follow her and see her other work on Instagram. -        Editing by Multitude Productions -        Transcripts by Joyce Ambale and Sy Hoekstra. -        Production by Sy Hoekstra and our incredible subscribers Transcript Introduction [An acoustic guitar softly plays six notes in a major scale, the first three ascending and the last three descending, with a keyboard pad playing the tonic in the background. Both fade out as Jonathan Walton says “This is a KTF Press podcast.”] Jesse Wheeler: The Kingdom of God, or Christians, or those who would seek to be citizens of the kingdom, cannot live in such a way that emulates the kingdoms of this world. What that entails is, I call it the proper use of power. It's not like physical versus spiritual as sometimes we try to kind of get. It's like, no, it's actually how we understand power and why Jesus through going to the cross, he was basically saying, “Okay, empire, the forces of violence and hatred and exploitation, give me your all.” And he took it to the cross and took it on the cross, and he rejected the violent option. [The song “Citizens” by Jon Guerra fades in. Lyrics: “I need to know there is justice/ That it will roll in abundance/ And that you’re building a city/ Where we arrive as immigrants/ And you call us citizens/ And you welcome us as children home.” The song fades out.] Sy Hoekstra: Welcome to Shake the Dust, seeking Jesus, confronting Injustice. I'm Sy Hoekstra. Jonathan Walton: And I'm Jonathan Walton. We have a great show for you today, including an interview with another one of our authors from our anthology on Christianity and politics in the era of Trump. This one's on how regular Christians can discern between good and bad theology, and how we can see bad theology playing out in the Middle East. Plus afterwards, hear our thoughts on the interview, and we'll be doing our segment, Which Tab is Still Open, diving deeper into one of the recommendations from our newsletter. This week it's all about the Olympic opening ceremony controversy, trans athletes at the games and the White Christian persecution complex. Sy Hoekstra: [laughs]. We should probably say non-trans athletes at the Olympic Games. Jonathan Walton: I was literally about to be like, “and not?” [laughs] but… Sy Hoekstra: Yeah, that's part of the persecution complex. But we will get to that folks, don't worry. You will hear the whole story on how ridiculous it is. Before we get there, a quick reminder, please, everybody consider going to KTFPress.com and becoming a paid subscriber. We will not be able to continue doing this work beyond this election season if we do not get a lot more paid subscribers. So if you want to see this work continue, please go there and sign up. That gets you all the bonus episodes of this show. It gets you access to our monthly Zoom subscriber chats and more community features. So please KTFPress.com, become a paid subscriber. If you already are a paid subscriber, consider upgrading to a founding member level and please share widely with your friends and family to anyone who you think might be interested in joining our community here. Thank you so much all. All right Jonathan, tell everybody about our guest this week. Jonathan Walton: Yes, we have the amazing Jesse Wheeler. For almost three years, Jesse has served as executive administrator and development director for Friends of Sabeel North America, an interdenominational Christian organization seeking justice and peace in the holy land through education, advocacy, and nonviolent action. Prior to that, he served just shy of seven years in Beirut, Lebanon as a project’s manager for the Institute of Middle East Studies at the Arab Baptist Theological Seminary. He also ran the Master of Religion in the Middle East and North African studies program, working also as support instructor for MENA history, politics and economics. He has served in Nazarene, evangelical free and Presbyterian churches, and he holds a PG certificate in baptistic histories and theologies from the University of Manchester, a master of divinity with an emphasis in Islamic studies from Fuller Theological Seminary and a BA in diplomatic in Middle Eastern history with a minor in political economics from the University of California Berkeley. Jesse's wife Heidi is Palestinian-American, and they have three amazing boys. Now, Jesse's essay in our anthology was called Bad Theology Kills: How We Justify Killing Arabs. We actually published that at one point on KTFPress.com, so we'll have the link in our show notes to that. And you can get the entire anthology with all 36 essays at Keepingthefaithbook.com. That link will also be in the show notes. Sy Hoekstra: So we did this interview like we did a lot of our interviews a few months ago, at this point [laughs]. We've been releasing these slowly. This one we did in April, which is relevant. I only say that now because we talk about Biden a decent amount, and when it comes to Palestine, which is what we're talking about when we mention Biden, there's not a lot of distance between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris. Jonathan Walton: Nope. Sy Hoekstra: So [laughs], I just wanted to note that up top so that you know that effectively all the content, all the things that we actually say on the subject don't really change given the candidate switch. But that disclaimer behind us, here we go with the interview with Jesse Wheeler. [the intro piano music from “Citizens” by Jon Guerra plays briefly and then fades out.] Jonathan Walton: Jesse Wheeler, thank you so much for being with us today on Shake the Dust. We really, really appreciate it. Jesse Wheeler: Yeah, no, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you guys. How Everyday Christians Can Tell Good Theology from Bad Theology Jonathan Walton: Yeah. We were privileged to publish your essay in our anthology, and you gave us a relatively simple and accessible test for judging the value of the theology that we hear from leaders. Could you talk a little bit about the fruit test? Jesse Wheeler: Yeah. The fruit test, basically, it's taken straight from the Sermon on the Mount. It's no secret that there are different theological systems that exist in the world, different schools of thought, different ways of thinking, and it can be overwhelming, actually. And I'm even thinking of either my own context back when I was in seminary and sort of some of the destabilizing aspects of it, or when I was working at a seminary and working with students who are introduced to new ideas. And it can be overwhelming even epistemologically overwhelming when they're getting ideas that sort of might butt up against core ideas that maybe they were grown up with that are core parts of their identity. It can be very destabilizing. And this question of is there a way to distinguish good theology quote, from bad theology quote- unquote, if, I mean, those are very reductionist [laughs] the terminology itself, of course. But I think it comes straight from the Sermon on the Mount actually. And Jesus in the concluding sections of Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 7, Jesus gives this, “By your fruit you will recognize them.” How to tell true prophets from false prophets on the basis of their fruit. He doesn't necessarily say, go get a doctorate in systematic, [laughs] in dogmatics to determine whether they are… He’s like, look at the fruit of what is happening. Jonathan Walton: Right. Jesse Wheeler: And it's for normal people too. This is like normal people without massive theology to say, “Hey, look at this. I see that the fruit of this is leading to hurt and harm and destruction, or the fruit of this is leading to healing and health and flourishing.” It's not to denigrate or dismiss theology. I mean, the title of my chapter is Bad Theology Kills. I think Theology is important. Jonathan Walton: Exactly Jesse Wheeler: [laughs] It's a litmus test for assessing theology. And right there, Jesus chapters five, six, and the first part of seven, he gives a whole list of instructions of teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and then concludes with, “Therefore do to others what you would want others to do for you. This summarizes the law and the prophets,” which is of course, the scriptures. Basically saying, if you wanna know what the