Advertise on podcast: Insurance Banter with Burand & Borup

The independent insurance agency channel has supposedly been on the verge of extinction for decades. Instead, it continues to evolve, grow, and find new ways to compete. In this episode of Insurance Banter, Paul Borup and Chris Burand sit down with Luke Bills, President of Independent Agency Distribution at Liberty Mutual, to discuss what is actually happening to insurance distribution. Luke shares his perspective from nearly 25 years in the industry, including how private equity and consolidation have reshaped the agency landscape while the overall number of P&C agencies has remained surprisingly resilient.  Pasted markdown  Pasted markdown The conversation moves beyond traditional agency models to examine the growth of direct distribution, embedded insurance, new technology-driven agencies, and AI. More importantly, Luke explains why increased complexity may actually strengthen the value proposition of independent agents rather than eliminate them.  Pasted markdown  Pasted markdown In this episode, you’ll learn: How private equity and M&A are changing the structure of the independent agency channel.Why consolidation has not resulted in the disappearance of independent agencies.Why the captive agency model is facing increasing pressure while independent agencies continue to gain market share.Where embedded insurance and technology-driven distribution models may fit into the industry's future.How AI could remove friction from insurance transactions without necessarily replacing professional agents.Why increasingly complex risks make expertise, experience, carrier relationships, and trusted advice more valuable.What Liberty Mutual sees as the future of its partnership with independent agents.

Technology is changing the independent insurance industry at a remarkable pace—and agencies are moving beyond simply experimenting with AI. In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and Paul are joined by Doug Mohr, Vice President of Industry Relations and Partnerships at Vertafore, to discuss how technology is reshaping independent agencies, networks, and the broader insurance ecosystem. Doug explains why open architecture and integrations have become critical as agencies assemble increasingly sophisticated technology stacks, and why the agency management system remains the essential system of record. The conversation then turns to AI, where Doug sees 2026 as the year agencies move from experimentation to real implementation. From ingesting unstructured data and automating reconciliation to assisting underwriting, AI is already removing repetitive work—but that doesn't mean insurance professionals can stop checking its work. In this episode, you'll learn: How insurance associations and agency networks are evolving to provide more technology and market accessWhy “tech stack in a box” solutions are lowering the barriers for agents moving from captive to independent agenciesHow Vertafore's Orange Partner Program creates an ecosystem of integrated third-party technologyWhy open APIs and a clearly defined system of record matter as insurance technology becomes more interconnectedWhere agencies are already putting AI to work in real-world workflowsWhy 2026 represents a shift from AI experimentation to AI implementationHow agentic AI could eventually automate entire insurance workflows rather than individual tasksWhy human oversight remains essential when using AI for regulated insurance workWhy “trust but verify” may be the most important AI advice for insurance professionals right now

The MGA marketplace has evolved from what was once viewed as insurance’s dumping ground into one of the industry’s most sophisticated and innovative segments. In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and the team sit down with John Willemsen of Willemsen Advisors to explore what’s driving the growth of MGAs—and why now may be the time for insurance entrepreneurs to make their move. Drawing on more than 35 years in underwriting, business development, and program business, John explains what separates successful MGAs from those that struggle. The conversation covers everything from distribution and carrier expectations to the growing importance of data, analytics, AI, and technology. John also explains why launching an MGA is more like launching an insurance carrier than many entrepreneurs realize—and why the barriers to entry may soon get much higher. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why differentiation and distribution can matter as much as underwriting when launching an MGAWhy John recommends having an 18-month to two-year financial “moat” for a startup MGAWhy roughly $10 million in premium can be an important target when working with carriersHow data and analytics can uncover profitable segments competitors may be overlookingWhy AI-related risks could create opportunities for a new generation of specialty MGAsHow innovative MGAs are approaching difficult markets such as commercial autoWhy technology may soon become a requirement just to “get in the front door”Why John believes the MGA market will continue to grow and become more sophisticatedConnect with John Willemsen John is the founder of Willemsen Advisors, an MGA advisory firm working with startup and existing MGAs as well as private equity firms evaluating MGA opportunities. He also serves as a strategic advisor to Target Markets and participates in a podcast with the Target Markets Association. [email protected]

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Paul and Chris sit down with Tom Troy, CEO of The Mutual Group, to explore a new model for helping mutual insurance companies compete and modernize without sacrificing the independence that has defined them for generations. What You'll Learn Why mutual insurers remain such an important part of the U.S. P&C insurance marketHow The Mutual Group helps mutual insurers modernize without giving up their independenceWhy the farmer cooperative model offers a useful blueprint for the future of mutual insuranceHow technology is changing the strategic responsibilities of insurance leadersWhy insurers should evaluate AI through the lens of customer service rather than simply corporate efficiencyHow AI could make claims and customer interactions faster and more effectiveWhy transparency with regulators will be critical as insurers expand their use of AIWhy Tom believes trust will preserve the insurance agent's value in an increasingly AI-driven marketplaceHow insurance agents can use AI to strengthen—not replace—the relationships they have with customers

What if one of the biggest risks inside your insurance agency has nothing to do with the policies you sell? In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and Paul sit down with Jenny Lavey of Rise Human Resources to discuss the people side of running an insurance agency, from hiring and interviewing to HR compliance, onboarding, employee retention, and recruiting in an increasingly difficult talent market. In this episode, you'll learn:  Why many small and midsize businesses unintentionally “wing it” when it comes to HR.  How structured interviews help agencies hire for behavior and culture, not merely résumés.  Why job descriptions, employee classification, and independent-contractor decisions deserve serious attention.  How better onboarding can improve employee experience and retention.  Why your agency's reputation as an employer is becoming increasingly important.  How colleges, internships, and adjacent industries can become valuable recruiting pipelines.  Why critical thinking may be more valuable than prior insurance experience.  How to recognize and recruit talented people wherever you encounter them. Guest: Jenny Lavey, Rise Human Resources Learn more: RiseHumanResources.com

For decades, agency owners have been told that growth requires hiring more people, adding more technology, and building larger teams. But what if the opposite is true? In this episode of Insurance Banter with Burand & Borup, Chris Burand and Paul Borup are joined by agency management experts Mary Belka and Cheryl Koch of Agency Management Resource Group. With more than 30 years of consulting experience, they've helped independent insurance agencies dramatically improve profitability, productivity, and operational performance. The conversation explores why many agencies suffer from business model problems rather than staffing problems, why leadership discipline matters more than technology, and why the best-performing agencies often have fewer people doing more meaningful work. You'll also hear why AI is a powerful tool but not a replacement for knowledge, experience, and sound agency management. Whether you're an agency owner, producer, operations manager, or account manager, this episode offers practical insights that can improve your agency's efficiency, profitability, and long-term value. In this episode:  Why some insurance agencies can actually become "too profitable" for buyers  The surprising truth about staffing shortages in independent agencies  Why business model problems are often mistaken for personnel problems  How leadership discipline drives agency profitability  The difference between education and training in developing great account managers  Why technology alone hasn't improved agency productivity  The proper role of producers versus account managers  Performance-based compensation and accountability  Why specialization creates stronger agencies  The opportunities and limitations of AI in insurance About Our Guests Mary Belka and Cheryl Koch are nationally recognized consultants specializing in independent agency management, operational efficiency, organizational design, education, and Errors & Omissions risk management. Through Agency Management Resource Group, they have spent more than three decades helping agencies increase productivity, improve profitability, and build sustainable operating models. Connect with Our Guests Agency Management Resource Group Email: [email protected] Call: Mary (503) 866-5704

In this episode of Insurance Banter, we sit down with Kevin Donoghue, Founder of Mystic Capital Advisors, to unpack what’s really happening in the insurance agency M&A market. From collapsing public broker multiples to AI-driven staffing cuts, Kevin shares insider insight into how agency valuations are changing and what sellers need to know before entering the market. We also dive into:  Why private equity-backed buyers are still aggressively acquiring agencies  The surprising number of buyers most agency owners never hear about  How brokers can increase agency sale valuations dramatically  The hidden conflicts of interest many sellers overlook  Why due diligence should go BOTH ways  The risks of excessive leverage in agency roll-ups  How top producers and employment agreements impact agency value  What sellers should understand about earnouts and equity structures If you own an insurance agency, are considering a future sale, or simply want a clearer understanding of where the market is heading, this conversation is packed with practical insight. Key Takeaways  Public broker EBITDA multiples have compressed significantly  AI concerns are reshaping investor expectations  Private equity still has substantial capital to deploy  Sellers should focus on both valuation and buyer fit  Specialized M&A advisors can materially improve outcomes  Buyer financial strength matters more than ever Guest Information Kevin Donoghue Founder, Mystic Capital Advisors Email: [email protected] Phone:  617-901-8747

Episode Summary: Chris and Paul are joined by Jerry Messick of Unity Captive to explore the realities of captive insurance—beyond the polished sales pitches. They break down when captives are a powerful tool for risk management and profitability—and when they can lead to serious financial and regulatory trouble. Captive insurance is often sold as a silver bullet—but is it a smart risk strategy or a ticking time bomb? In this episode, we cut through the hype and unpack what actually makes captives work… and what causes them to fail. From IRS scrutiny to due diligence mistakes, this conversation highlights the difference between using captives strategically versus chasing tax-driven schemes. If you’ve ever considered a captive (or advise clients who have), this episode offers a grounded, experience-driven perspective you won’t hear in most presentations. Key Takeaways:  Captives work best as a risk management strategy—not a tax play Why loss ratios and risk profiles determine captive success  The importance of due diligence (on both the model AND the people selling it) Common reasons captives fail—including IRS challenges and poor structuring How owning your own risk changes behavior and improves outcomes  Why more than 50% of commercial premiums are shifting to alternative markets The growing role of group captives and long-term client retention strategiesChapters / Timestamps:  (00:00) Introduction & guest background: Jerry Messick  (01:00) What Unity Captive does & industry experience  (02:30) The reality of captives: when they work vs. when they don’t  (04:20) Why many captives fail (and IRS concerns)  (05:00) Due diligence: questions you must ask before joining a captive  (06:50) Captives as true risk ownership—not risk transfer  (08:00) Improving loss control & operational behavior  (10:15) Industry trends: growth of alternative risk markets  (11:40) Group captives and long-term strategy  (13:00) The future of the insurance industry & attracting new talent  (16:00) Why insurance careers are more dynamic than you think  (17:20) Final thoughts: integrity and client-first mindset Contact:  🌐 Unity Captive: https://unitycaptive.com  📞 Phone: 405-550-2651

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Chris and Paul sit down with Greg Burton, former CEO of BrickStreet Insurance, to unpack one of the most remarkable turnaround stories in the insurance industry. Greg shares how he stepped into a failing workers’ compensation system in West Virginia—losing $1 million per day with billions in unfunded liabilities—and helped lead its transformation into a successful private insurance company.  Key Topics Covered: The Breaking Point: What a collapsing state-run system looks like from the inside Leadership in Crisis: How to step into chaos and create clarity Cultural Transformation: Shifting mindset from “claimant-first” to “customer-first” Privatization Decision: Why moving from government to private market was essential Building From Scratch: Launching a fully operational insurance company in just 9 months People Over Process: Empowering existing employees and bringing in the right talent Lasting Impact: How reforms reduced workers’ comp rates by over 80% and reshaped a state’s economy

The insurance industry markets expertise, but in many states the legal standard of care says something else: agents often aren’t required to advise clients what to buy, and the insured is expected to read and understand the policy anyway. That’s not professionalism. That’s outsourcing risk to the least-informed party in the transaction. Chris and Paul go straight at the contradiction: we mandate CE while tolerating an order-taker standard that protects mediocrity and punishes agents who do the job correctly. They draw a hard line between “real education” and cheap CE mills, explain how the system incentivizes underinsurance, and break down why the fear of higher standards driving more E&O claims doesn’t hold up in practice. This episode challenges the industry’s favorite fiction: that the current model is defensible because “that’s how it’s always been.”

In today’s episode, Chris sits down with Jon Persky (Optimum Performance Solutions) to unpack what’s actually happening in the insurance agency M&A market—and what agency owners keep getting wrong when buyers come knocking. You’ll also hear a blunt breakdown of the biggest risk in today’s deals: taking part of the purchase price in buyer stock—especially when it’s not liquid, not publicly traded, and can come with restrictions most sellers don’t fully understand. You can reach Jon through his website at https://www.optperform.com/

In this episode of Insurance Banter, Paula and Chris welcome back Mark Robinson for a practical conversation on how agents and brokers should respond to Department of Insurance (DOI) consumer complaints—and why these letters should be taken seriously, even when the complaint feels minor or “garden variety.”  What You’ll Learn What a Department of Insurance complaint actually is (and what it’s not)Why agents shouldn’t panic, but must respond seriously and quicklyHow DOI complaint responses can expose broader issues like licensing or premium handlingThe biggest mistakes agencies make when responding to regulatorsHow fees and disclosure failures can become major complaint triggersWhen you should involve an attorney—and when you may not need onePractical steps to reduce complaints before they ever get filedIf you'd like to connect with Mark, his contact information can be found here: https://www.mrllp.com/

In this episode, we sit down with one of the most effective insurance lobbyists in the industry to talk about why insurance keeps losing the public narrative, why honesty and expertise matter more than money, and what happens when even insurance executives stop believing in their own product. Show Notes Why insurance lobbying keeps losing: Too few resources, too much territory, and “hired-gun” lobbyists who don’t actually understand how insurance works.The two things that make a lobbyist effective: Be the real expert in the room—and be scrupulously honest (because “you only get to lie once”).The bigger threat than tort reform: Public trust + affordability. When even insurance executives say they’ll drop homeowners coverage, the industry is headed toward adverse selection and a consumer backlash—unless carriers change their mindset and show up with leadership, not silence.

Chris and Paul are joined by Jim Caragher from the CIB Group (https://thecibgroup.com/) to chat about producer recruitment.   Producers don’t fail—systems do. Why agencies that rely on luck and “shovel-ready” hires struggle, while those with real sales playbooks see 70%+ success rates. Why recruiting outside insurance works. How proven B2B salespeople from other industries thrive when given structure, mentorship, and a clear path to renewals and residual income.Building producers builds agency value. How validated next-gen producers dramatically increase agency valuation and attract private equity buyers.

Chris and Paul are Joined by Jeff Mango from AM Best.  They discuss the growth of MGAs/MGUs and other Delegated Underwriting Authority entities in the market.  Those types of operations now make up a material portion of the insurance distribution network and this discussion will help you better understand the shifts in the marketplace.