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"If you do not use enough force soon enough, you will have to use too much force later on." This maxim holds not just for law enforcement officers but for any man who wields authority and bears responsibility for others: pastors, church officers, husbands, and fathers, to name a few. We are all averse to conflict and feel as if we've entered a tunnel of chaos when it arises. Preparing for conflict will allow you to show up for it without letting a festering problem require "lethal force." Postponing engagement at the initial signs of conflict or engaging a serious situation weakly at the outset will likely make the situation worse, leading to physical and spiritual fatalities. *** The episode ends with The Song of Simeon, written by Pastor Phillip Moyer and recorded by the Good Shepherd Band. For more music from the Good Shepherd Band and My Soul Among Lions (all stocked with faithful musicians from Trinity Reformed Church in Bloomington, IN) visit the following websites: Warhorn SongbookThe Good Shepherd Band (bandcamp, apple music, spotify, youtube)My Soul Among Lions (bandcamp, apple music, spotify, youtube) *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Outro music is The Song of Simeon by the Good Shepherd Band and Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Andrew Henry returns to the podcast, joining Pastor Tim Bayly to discuss why they are thankful for the United States of America and what the need of the day is for Christians living in her. They discuss the American Revolution and its messy complexity; John Adams; the desire for simplistic explanations amid conflicts and controversies; the work of politicians and pastors; living in your station; localism; the crisis of discipline; and cultivating the ability to say "I was wrong." Show notes: Alfred F. Young, Liberty Tree: Ordinary People and the American RevolutionGeorge W. Forell, "Luther and the War Against the Turks,” Concordia Theological Monthly: Vol. 17, Article 52. Andrew mentions Samson, so I thought to include... Calvin’s comments on Numbers 6:6.He shall come at no dead body: This, too, they had in common with the high-priest, that they were not even to mourn for their relations. Although Moses enjoins two things, that the Nazarites should make themselves unclean neither by entering the house of mourning, nor by mourning themselves, it was indeed a duty of humanity to bury the dead; but if any of the people had touched a dead body, or had come near a death-bed or bier, they were polluted. But God demands more of the Nazarites, lest, they should contract uncleanness; for it was not sufficient for them (as will be seen again presently) to purify themselves according to the accustomed means, but it behoved them to be far removed from all things that would pollute them. But why the touch of a dead body was a pollution, we shall consider more at large in its proper place. Now it must be briefly concluded, that because by death is represented God’s curse, the wages of sin, the Israelites were thus admonished to beware of dead works. (336) As to the mourning, the reason of the prohibition was different, viz., that those who professed the special service of God, should set, an example to others of magnanimity and submission. If it were sinful to weep and lament when our friends are taken from us, Christ would not, have wept. at the tomb of Lazarus; but because perturbation is always associated with grief, and men in their mourning are too apt to give way to ambition and pomp, and voluntarily and purposely provoke themselves to excess, as though nature did not already carry them further than is right, the Nazarites could not give an example of moderation, if they had mixed themselves with mourners. Wherefore, as they were before restrained from daintiness, so now a remedy is applied to the opposite disease, viz., to sorrow. But, although all ought, to seek to indulge it moderately, yet something more is prescribed to the Nazarites, that, as if disentangled and stripped from earthly affections, they should go further than the rest of the people; as we shall see hereafter with respect to the priests. Aish.com article titled, “Samson - Contact with Dead": In terms of coming in contact with dead animals, that is not an issue for any type of Nazarite. The Torah only forbids his coming in contact with “a dead soul” – but not a dead animal (which doesn’t possess a true soul) (Talmud Nazir 48a). (answered by Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld.) Here’s the picture of my great-grandfather, William A. DeWalt, which hangs in our living room. He holds my uncle, Curtis DeWalt: "H. R. 10174. William Dewalt, aged 78 years, late a private, Company A, One hundred and fifty-fifth Regiment Pennsylvania Infantry, from April 20, 1862, to June 6, 1865 (length of service, 3 years 1 month 17 days), is now pensioned under certificate No. 47837 at the rate of $46 per month under general law for loss of left arm above elbow."*** Desire to become a pastor? Check out New Geneva Academy. Listen to NGA's brand new podcast, "What I Wish They'd Told Me," here or watch video here. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

This episode wraps up the conversation between Tim, Joel, Judy, and Mulu. The Lintons describe the amazing Sundays their church family spends together, which run from the crack of dawn until the night. Their ministry is “organic,” focusing on making disciples of Jesus Christ who go beyond the superficial. The church in Yilan County, Taiwan is all about living life together, just like Bonhoeffer wrote about in Life Together. Along the way, they also talk about the ins and outs of worship music and the merciful discipline of children. The first part of this interview is here. Another interview with Joel and Judy can be heard here. *** Desire to become a pastor? Check out New Geneva Academy. Listen to NGA's brand new podcast, "What I Wish They'd Told Me," here or watch video here. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Joel and Judy Linton, missionaries and church planters in Yilan County, Taiwan, join Pastor Tim Bayly again. Their conversation will continue in the next episode. During this session, Joel, Judy, and Tim discuss the conversion and discipleship of a particular family that has become a central source of strength in the church plant in Yilan County (you'll hear from one of them directly during the podcast!). They also discuss the nature of language and how it shapes a people—preparing or hindering their understanding of Scripture, the necessity of discipleship (not merely conversion), and how a church should make decisions about age-specific ministries. For more about Joel and Judy's work in Taiwan, visit their website here. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Joel and Judy Linton, missionaries and church planters in Yilan County, Taiwan, join Pastor Tim Bayly. Judy recounts the immense suffering her family endured at the hands of political operatives by Chiang Kai-shek. She shares her own harrowing experience of being stabbed by an assassin and her subsequent conversion to Christ. Joel describes his role as a pastor at their church plant and the challenges of working in rural Taiwan. Throughout the conversation, they delve into the concept of Christian nationalism and its relevance to Taiwan. *** Here's the latest newsletter sent by the Lintons to their supporters: Taiwan Prayer Letter of Joel and Judy LintonApril 2026 Dear praying friends and family, Happy Resurrection Day!, which in one sense I could say every Lord’s Day. This year we celebrated with one of our supporting churches as we have been support-raising in the U.S for two months. We’ve already spoken at 5 churches and we are planning to visit 6 more in five states. I need to increase my own support levels, and I’m hoping to pick up at least two more supporting churches. Also we are raising money for our Yilan church’s building fund. And we have one other reason to be in the U.S. as our third daughter Ashlyn is graduating from college. Last week we got to see her perform a Rachmaninov piano concerto with a full orchestra. It was amazing! And it was the first time in two years our entire family was able to be together. (We took a picture together after the concert. See attached.) Please pray for out time here. After driving back down from Michigan, a letter was waiting for me in the mailbox: I have been called up for jury duty on a capital murder case. I wrote the court and the judge requesting to be excused but have still not heard back. If I have to serve jury duty, that will affect so many plans. I’m also concerned about being able to attend Ashlyn’s graduation. Please pray that the judge will excuse me. Pray also for Liam Carr and his family. They are our newest Mission Sending Service long-term missionaries and are awaiting Taiwan’s government to issue them a visa so they can move to Taiwan. The Carrs have also been raising support and are not yet to full levels. Pray for their move this year and their adjustment to living in Yilan County and full-time language study. Please pray for K.B. Church while we are away. Pray that God will work in each of those attending the church to become more mature. Pray that more will become Christians. And pray for more coworkers. Our greatest thanks to you all of you.In Christ’s keeping. Joel for the LintonsJoel, Judy, Faith (and Carver), Charis, Ashlyn, Saorsa, and Seren. ———To support us: Please make checks out to "Mission Sending Service" mark "for LINTON support" on the memo line. To donate to our church building fund, please make checks out to "Mission Sending Service" mark "for church building” on the memo line Please mail to: Mission Sending Service111 Knights Bridge RoadFlorence, AL 35630U.S.A. Or please call Elizabeth Marchman at: (256) 762-3117 in order to arrange direct deposit. We are still investigating online giving options. Mission Sending Service is a 501(c)3 non-profit organization. All donations are tax deductible. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Jürgen von Hagen, pastor and former professor of economics at the University of Bonn, again joins OOOM to discuss pacifism, military conscription, and the impact of global economics on the spread of democracy around the world. How should Christians serve their governments during times of war? How should peace be pursued—by ignoring conflicts, by making every nation a medium-sized power, by hegemony, by regime change and the installation of democracy? How should Christians think about global conflicts, particularly the current war in Iran? Mentioned in the episode: Carnage & Culture: Landmark Battles in the Rise of Western Power (2001) by Victor Davis Hanson *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

We are all in the habit of putting obedience to God on a shelf when our political commitments come into play. We refuse to acknowledge the way our political affiliations corrupt our obedience. Few things expose this tragic truth more than our contempt for immigrants and sojourners. Young men, particularly, are prone to unyielding denunciations of immigrants. To them, Jürgen has the following exhortations: 1) Look immigrants in their eyes2) Just as God always loves us but does not always like us, so we must love our neighbors even when we may not like them *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Even the most conservative churches today are filled with rebellion against authority. Why? Because we have lost the doctrine of the Fatherhood of God. As fatherhood died, so the fear of God has died, and so authority has died. Having lost the doctrine of God's Fatherhood, we simplistically bounce between what we understand to be the only two options: absolute autocracy and absolute mutuality. Mentioned in the show: Alexander Mitscherlich, Society without the father: A contribution to social psychology; (1969). John Calvin, "Paradise Comes with a Caveat: The Meaning of the Two Trees”; preached Friday, September 22, 1559, on text Genesis 2:15-17 (sermon ten in his series on Genesis): "Now God's will is unknown to us of itself. He must make it known by His word so that we can discern from what He says what pleases Him and what He condemns. That, then, is why God in the beginning gives our father Adam leave to use everything He put in his hand except the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Now, although we do not know why God commanded or forbade one thing or another, He must nonetheless hold such authority over us that we yield to His simple statement, for one aspect of obedience lies in the fact that we are not wise in our own conceits and do not bring ourselves to talking back and asking, "Who moved God to do this? Why did he do it?” If we engage in such disputes, we disparage God's majesty. When a master orders one of his servants, or a prince one of his officers, to do what he tells him, he will want to be heard and have his order executed without the servant's knowing why. Now if mortal men ask for such a privilege and such a right over those who are subject to them, what will the situation be by comparison when we are dealing with God! God's authority and right, then, are similarly diminished when we are unwilling to hear patiently what He commands and when we do not concede to His prohibitions without question. In short, if we want to be obedient to God, as is proper, we must in no way question Him to learn what motivated Him to approve one thing and to condemn another, and we must be content to know that He has spoken and the decision has been made and that we are not permitted to resist it in any way." Screenshot of excerpt from Tim Bayly, Daddy Tried: Overcoming the Failures of Fatherhood (2016): (here) ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

All history is a history of warfare. Christians understand that history is the outworking of man's Fall. Another fruit of the Fall is that man always tends to avoid conflict, hoping the issues will resolve themselves. Pastors and elders in the church must first be convinced that there will always be conflict in the church and that putting off entering into that conflict will make it worse. If you avoid conflict and heading off the wolves at the pass, the wolves will choose the hill, the weapons, and the time of year for the fight. Pastors and elders are responsible for anticipating the conflict. They must have a faith-filled resignation to conflict to fulfill their calling to guard the sheep. It is a defining weakness of our generation that pastors want to focus on the positive and collect men by the positive. We talk about discipleship, building things up, and growth, then we do our utmost to blind ourselves to threats. Good shepherds see what they see and engage. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Pastor Tim and Andrew Henry discuss Helen Andrews' article "The Great Feminization," in which she presents this thesis: "Wokeness is not a new ideology, an outgrowth of Marxism, or a result of post-Obama disillusionment. It is simply feminine patterns of behavior applied to institutions where women were few in number until recently." Is she right? Has God made men and women different? Does His Word clearly define the differences? Has the church been faithful to uphold His Word as our standard? The episode concludes with a discussion of the feminization and bowdlerization of English translations of Scripture. Also mentioned: Carol Gilligan's In a Different Voice (1982) Andrew Jackson, speaking of Marshall's opinion in Worcester v. Georgia: "He has made his decision; now let him enforce it." Hemingway: "'How did you go bankrupt?' 'Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.'" *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church.   Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com.   Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions.   Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Links, in order of their mention on the podcast: Helen Andrews, "The Great Feminization," Compact, October 16, 2025. *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com. Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Links, in order of their mention on the podcast: Kierkegaard parable Andrew cites: From the Journal: Empty Nutshells ...God would be loved. Therefore He wants Christians. To love God is to be a Christian...Now "man's" knavish interest consists in creating millions and millions of Christians, the more the better, all men if possible; for thus the whole difficulty of being a Christian vanishes, being a Christian and being a man amounts to the same thing, and we find ourselves where paganism ended. Christendom has mocked God and continues to mock Him—just as if to a man who is a lover of nuts, instead of bringing him one nut with a kernel, we were to bring him tons and millions...of empty nuts, and then make this show of our zeal to comply with his wish.Soren Kierkegaard, Attack Upon “Christendom” 1854-1855, translated with an introduction by Walter Lowrie, The Beacon Press, Boston, 1956. p. 156. John Frame, "Machen’s Warrior Children" in Sung Wook Chung, ed., Alister E. McGrath and Evangelical Theology (Grand Rapids: Baker, 2003). Norman Cohn, The Pursuit of the Millennium: Revolutionary Millenarians and Mystical Anarchists of the Middle Ages. Rodney Stark, God's Battalions: The Case for the Crusades. Jonathan Riley-Smith, The Crusades: A History. (Other histories of the Crusades by Riley-Smith.) Augustine, Confessions. (Warhorn published an excellent short biography of Augustine by Dr. Josh Congrove titled Behold My Heart: The Life and Legacy of Augustine. Congrove has his doctorate in classics and he recommends the following translations of the Confessions: to those who want simple English, either Henry Chadwick or John Ryan; but the best translation remains F. J. Sheed. Derek Thompson, "Everything Is Television: A theory of culture and attention." Neil Postman, Amusing Ourselves to Death: Public Discourse in the Age of Show. Richard Baxter, Autobiography. Richard Baxter, The Reformed Pastor. Lewis Bayly, The Practice of Piety. John Owen, D. D., A Discourse Concerning Evangelical Love, Church Peace, and Unity; With the Occasions and Reasons of Present Differences and Divisions about Things Sacred and Religious, (London: Doxman Newman, at the Kings-Armes in the Poultry, 1673). Christopher Clark, The Sleepwalkers: How Europe Went to War in 1914. Paul Johnson, Modern Times Revised Edition: The World from the Twenties to the Nineties. Westminster Confession: Chapter XVII Of the Perseverance of the Saints | Chapter XVIII Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation Westminster Larger Catechism: Of the Perseverance of the Saints and Of Assurance of Grace and Salvation *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church.   Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com.   Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions.   Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Tim, Jürgen, and Andrew address the following questions in light of the murder of Charlie Kirk last week: Is Charlie Kirk a Christian martyr?What should be the Christian's response to Charlie Kirk's murder?Was Charlie Kirk's view of the 2nd Amendment righteous?What has the betrayal of fatherhood got to do with Charlie Kirk?What about Charlie Kirk's disposition made him what he was?Should there be immediate repercussions for those who are celebrating Charlie Kirk's murder publicly?Will the center hold in the United States?In a state already given over to bloodshed, what can we expect next? *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com. Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Tim, Andrew, and Jürgen cover various topics, including government subsidies for farming, the role of government in the economy, and the influence of political ideologies on institutions like the Federal Reserve and the CDC. The podcast also touches on the importance of trade for peace, the potential consequences of ending the Federal Reserve, and the need for independent institutions to prioritize the greater good. They’re taking a whack at this question: Can we trust the government? *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com. Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★

Key points from this episode: • Factionalism in the Church: Acknowledging the presence of division within the church and its potential benefits as an “immune system,” while also expressing a desire to avoid unnecessary factionalism.  • Historical Perspective on Holiness Movements: Discussing George Marsden’s book Fundamentalism and American Culture, which, among other things, explores holiness movements from the 1880s to the 1920s, highlighting the role of women in hymnology and the feminization of spirituality.  • Navigating Conflict in Ministry: Addressing the complexities of conflict in ministry, emphasizing the need to distinguish between pugnaciousness and necessary battles, and urging wise and purposeful engagement in conflicts.  • Ministry’s True Nature: Ministry is not about being helpful but about honoring God and protecting the flock, even if it means facing the disapproval of your elder board.  • Conflict Resolution: Judging the value and fruit of conflict is difficult and often impossible until long after the conflict has resolved.  • Leadership in Ministry: True leadership in ministry is not about seeking approval or building a following but about doing what pleases God and what is best for the sheep. This approach will bring conflict inexorably. Other mentions: Boswell's Life of Johnson James Herriot's All Creatures Great and Small *** Out of Our Minds Podcast: Pastors Who Say What They Think. For the love of Christ and His Church. Out of Our Minds is a production of New Geneva Academy. Are you interested in preparing for ordained ministry with pastors? Have a desire to grow in your knowledge and fear of God? Apply at www.newgenevaacademy.com. Master of Divinity / Bachelor of DivinityCertificate in Bible & Theology Intro and outro music is Psalm of the King, Psalm 21 by My Soul Among Lions. Out of Our Minds audio, artwork, episode descriptions, and notes are property of New Geneva Academy and Warhorn Media, published with permission by Transistor, Inc. ★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★