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Caleb Collier is the co-founder of The Forest School and The Institute for Self-Directed Learning in Fayetteville, Georgia. He is also a co-founder of Story Arts, a creative storytelling collective of schools in Atlanta, Georgia, has a PhD in Language and Literacy (Georgia State University), and has published books and articles on the field of education. Highlights from his conversation with Rod and Jal include: why schools may be producing exactly the outcomes they were built to produce; why those outcomes may no longer be preparing students for the future; lessons traditional schools can learn from camps, apprenticeship, and Indigenous approaches to learning; the importance of decision making and even failure in the classroom; considering the difference between cultivating intelligence and cultivating wisdom; how AI and rapid technological change make adaptability more valuable than memorization; and a lightning round that covers beard maintenance and a case of mistaken identity.  Check out Caleb Collier's Substack Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Susan L. Engel is a Senior Lecturer in Psychology and Founding Director of the Program in Teaching at Williams College. She is the author of several books, including her latest American Kindergarten: Dispatches from the First Year of School, and her essays on education have appeared in The New York Times, Bloomberg View, The Washington Post, The Nation, The Atlantic Monthly, Salon, and The Boston Globe. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: why kindergarten offers a unique window into the strengths and challenges of American education; a look a Susan's "five promises" that shape children's early school experience; exploring the tension between compliance and engagement in classrooms; why love remains an essential, and sometimes controversial part of great teaching; how teachers shape children's identities long before report cards ever do; the emotional side of thinking, and why separating "hard skills" from "soft skills" misses something essential about how children learn; interesting observations on Montessori education; and a lightning round that asks everyone what promise education should make to all future learners. Check out Susan's Book: American Kindergarten: Dispatches from the First Year of School Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Dr. Leyton Schnellert is a Professor in the University of British Columbia's Department of Curriculum & Pedagogy and Co-Director of the Canadian Institute for Inclusion and Citizenship. Dr. Schnellert is also the Pedagogy and Participation research cluster lead in UBC’s Institute for Community Engaged Research (ICER) and co-chair of BC’s Rural Education Advisory. His community-based collaborative work contributes a counterargument to top-down approaches that operate from deficit models, instead drawing from communities’ funds of knowledge to build participatory, place-conscious, and culturally sustaining practices. Highlights from his conversation with Rod and Jal include: why discussions around inclusion need to start with strengths instead of deficits; strategies for creating student, teacher and whole class profiles – and how those profiles can drive goal setting and accountability; how teachers can intentionally design learning for diverse learners; why project-based, place-based, and community-connected learning continues to be one of the most powerful ways to engage students; why belonging and "mattering" are important in the classroom, how the work of inclusion and belonging has adjusted to a polarizing political landscape; what it means to think big and start small; and one of the fastest lightning rounds ever!  Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Ted Dintersmith is an education advocate, author, filmmaker, and former venture capitalist whose work focuses on preparing young people for a rapidly changing world. After a successful 25-year career as a partner at Charles River Ventures and service on the U.S. delegation to the United Nations focused on education and entrepreneurship, he turned his attention to reimagining schooling for the innovation era. Ted is the executive producer of the acclaimed documentary Most Likely to Succeed and the author of What School Could Be, drawing on visits to hundreds of schools across all fifty states. Through his writing, films, philanthropy, and public speaking, he has become a leading voice for educational experiences that cultivate creativity, purpose, agency, and real-world problem solving rather than standardized test performance alone. Highlights from the episode include: an opening plug for Rod and Jal's new "Deeper Learning Alliance," a growing community of school leaders learning together, experimenting together, and transforming education—guided by Harvard's Deeper Learning Institute; Ted's shift from the venture capital to the education space; an introduction to the "PEAK" framework for meaningful learning experiences; what we can learn from how Finland values and prepares their teachers; examining the skills schools reward versus the skills modern life demands; why schools seem to be overvaluing the wrong types of math; the connection between education, democracy, and civic life; and a lightning round that examines the world of gambling! Learn more about the Deeper Learning Alliance Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Zane Olina is passionate about creating meaningful learning opportunities for both young people and adults. She has an MEd and PhD in Learning and Instructional Technology from Arizona State University, and her career spans classroom teaching, curriculum reform, leadership development, international education initiatives, and deep involvement in OECD Learning 2030 work. Currently, Zane works as Head of Professional Support at the Ogre Municipality Education Authority serving about 10,000 kids in Latvia. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: what it was like growing up in the Soviet Union, and the idea of "learning between the lines" in a somewhat restrictive environment; why meaningful learning requires more than memorization and tasks for the sake of doing tasks; how extracurricular activities model a better approach to true learning and growth – and what could possibly translate back to the classroom; how educators can help students develop expertise, perseverance, and the confidence to tackle problems whose solutions are not immediately obvious; the importance of showing progress and promoting students' self-efficacy; where AI may or may not fit in the classroom; a powerful example of adults shadowing students to better understand the day to day learning experience; and a lightning round that will leave you wanting to play some board games!  Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Dr. Tyler S. Thigpen has worked in innovative district, private, and charter schools in Georgia, as well as national and regional nonprofits. Tyler is co-founder of The Forest School: An Acton Academy in south metro Atlanta, founder and executive director of the Institute for Self-Directed Learning, and instructor at the University of Pennsylvania Graduate School of Education. He also holds a doctoral degree in education leadership from the Harvard Graduate School of Education, a master’s in public administration from the Harvard John F. Kennedy School of Government, and a master’s in theological studies from Regent College of the University of British Columbia. Highlights from the conversation include: why students need meaningful ownership over their learning; a deep dive on the pros and cons of traditional assessment mechanisms; exploring alternative forms of assessment including badges, public exhibitions, and student-led governing councils; the importance of celebrating growth beyond just grade advancement and test scores; why schools should use less "bubble wrap" and allow students to experience and learn from natural consequences; a plethora of sports metaphors; and a lightning round that covers motorcycle rides, beach volleyball, and a push for Free Range Humans swag!  Read Tyler's recent article on high school redesign efforts. Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Jason E. Glass. Ed.D., has more than 25 years of leadership experience in public education, spanning classroom teaching, district and state-level leadership, and executive roles in higher education, and currently holds the title of Superintendent of the Laguna Beach Unified School Distrirct. Prior to joining LBUSD, Dr. Glass served as Associate Vice President of Teaching and Learning at Western Michigan University, held the title of Commissioner of Education for the Commonwealth of Kentucky, where he led statewide efforts centered on deeper learning, equity, and student well-being, and also served as Chief State School Officer for the State of Iowa, focusing on literacy and support for the teaching profession. Highlights from the conversation include: understanding the distinction between macro and micro level changes in school systems; why compliance-driven leadership has its limits; the importance of listening before leading; how schools shape students’ understanding of authority and democracy; why arts education may hold some of the deepest lessons about learning; the role of trust, voice, and shared decision-making in healthy systems; Jason's experience as a choir singer; and a lightning round that has producer Gino "thoughtfully" fired up!  Read Jason's Article: Teaching Power: What Schools Teach About Authority and Democracy Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Amelia Peterson is a social scientist with a background in policy and consulting. She is currently leading the development of an entirely new MBA program at the London Interdisciplinary School. In her previous role as Head of Learning and Teaching at LIS, she has led on developing many of the school's internal processes of curriculum and institutional design. Highlights from the conversation include: an opening segment reflecting on March Madness' beautiful combination of math and basketball; examining the difference between intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom; how pattern recognition plays a role in developing expertise; what today's MBA program's often miss and how the new LIS MBA plans to be different; a quick comparison of the DEI landscape in the United Kingdom and United States; why Amelia believes that AI is still in the "crappy intern" phase; and a lightning round that covers toys and namesakes!  Learn more about LIS Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

LaShawn Routé Chatmon is the founding CEO and President of the National Equity Project, leading the organization’s transition from the Bay Area Coalition for Equitable Schools (BayCES).  Under her leadership, the National Equity Project has catalyzed a movement to revitalize our country’s approach to equity in education. Tom Malarkey is the director of strategic consulting at the National Equity Project. He works with leaders within school systems on equity-centered instructional change, collaborative learning and teams, and organizational and systems change. Highlights from their conversation include: hearing about Jal's recent red eye flight that resulted in little sleep but a lot of reading; why equity work must begin with self-reflection and move outward; what it means to lead for equity in today’s political climate; how, despite our differences, we all tend to want the same thing for our children and their future; understanding that listening—real, intentional listening—is one of the most powerful tools leaders have; how public education remains one of the last truly shared civic spaces where solidarity can still be built; and a lightning round that deviates from the "short snapper" format to remind us that we can all play a role in shaping the future.  Learn more about the National Equity Project Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Dov Stucker is a co-founder and Lead Teacher of Burlington City & Lake Semester (BCL) – a partnership between the Burlington School District and Shelburne Farms. He taught Social Studies at Burlington High School from 2011-2021, including School Innovation Seminar, a course that engaged students in the complex work of school redesign. Before returning to the classroom, Dov worked for nine years coordinating community-based learning and service-learning projects in Burlington and the French West Indies. Highlights from the episode include: an opening reflection on the prowess of Norwegian cross-country skiers; the origin story of BCL and the team-based design that brought it to life; how schools can rethink partnerships, expand who counts as a teacher, and build learning ecosystems beyond the classroom; what rigor looks like when it’s rooted in trust, risk, and relevance; how student-led portfolios can reveal learning more honestly than traditional assessment; the importance of the question, "What can we do here that we can’t do anywhere else?" when designing a meaningful learning experience; and a lightning round that somehow combines stalking and ice cream!   Learn more about BCL BCL Blog – Student Reflections Free Range Humans Podcast featured in a Shelburne Farms Blog Post Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Anthony Mackay is the immediate past CEO and current Co-Chair of the Washington DC-based National Center on Education and the Economy, while also serving as Deputy Chancellor, Swinburne University, Melbourne, Australia; Honorary Senior Fellow of the Graduate School of Education at the University of Melbourne; and Visiting Professor to the International Centre for Educational Enhancement, University of Bolton, UK. He has held multiple positions within education and continues to consult in parts of the United States, United Kingdom, and Australia – it's safe to say that Tony has been leading or part of every important global conversation around education in the last 20 years. Highlights from this season premiere episode include: an opening dialogue that reminds everyone of how old they are; artificial intelligence's disruptive nature and whether it can be viewed as a mirror showcasing what tasks no longer make sense in education systems; comparing AI to a "crappy intern;" how we can identify localized innovation and build it into larger scale transformation; the redefining of education to be focused on human flourishing – moving towards the portrait of a learner that is caring for self, others and the planet; and of course producer Gino's lightning round with an AI twist!  Check out the OECD Digital Education Outlook 2026 Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Alisa Berger is now a Free Range Humans regular, making her fourth appearance on the podcast. She was the founding co-principal of the New York City iSchool and is the author of How To Innovate: The Essential Guide for Fearless School Leaders, among many other accomplishments. Jal was very interested in bringing this topic to the table in an effort to better balance perspectives on progressive education, many examples of which appear throughout season four of the podcast. Highlights from the episode include: defining progressive education and examining some of the misconceptions; illustrating pitfalls and challenges while also giving advice on how to avoid them; distinguishing between classroom level and system level approaches; what it takes to really build student-centered experiences that work; the importance of balancing student and teacher agency; an opening conversation on summer fun that sheds light on the sensitive side of our producer; and a lightning round that combines insurance commercials, snacks, and a personal revelation from each participant.  Thanks again to all of our listeners for staying engaged and supporting our work. Season four is officially in the books, but we already have interviews lined up for the fall, with the start of season five scheduled for September! Cheers! Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Kyle Peruniak is a former wildland firefighter and current land-based educator in British Columbia. He is focused on creating inclusive experiences that promote empathy for the land, respect and appreciation for indigenous perspectives and ways of knowing, and provide youth with healthy, rich, learning opportunities. Lori Hryniuk is an experienced public school secondary Principal and educator who has a keen interest in redesigning how we organize schools. She is motivated to empower educators to think differently about their teaching practice and to help create authentic, engaging, inclusive learning environments with a focus on CORE and curricular competencies. Both are now working to support land-based learning initiatives in K-12 schools across British Columbia. Highlights from their conversation with Rod and Jal include: what prompted Lori to step away from the traditional education system; a brief history of Kyle's career as a wildland firefighter and how it shaped his leadership development; defining land-based learning and what distinguishes it from "outdoor education/recreation"; the importance of reciprocity with the land and developing respect and agency across every level of the education community; how land-based learning can transform student identity and engagement—even in urban settings; and a lightning round that will make you want to do some karaoke!  Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

Paige Fisher is an associate professor at Vancouver Island University with 18 years of experience in teacher education and leadership development. Her work has included embedded teacher ed programs, Indigenous teacher education initiatives, and explorations of non-traditional grading and assessment. Highlights from her conversation with Rod and Jal include: reflections on her own experiences as a student and teacher; a powerful story that illustrates the disconnect between traditional grading and student potential; how working at a community-driven homeschool program reshaped her approach to education; how Indigenous teachings have guided her leadership development; an emphasis on teaching with kindness and building community both in and out of the classroom; why you sometimes have to be more interesting than a goat to get students to pay attention; and a light-hearted lightning round that covers swimming and screen time habits!   Read Dr. Fisher's Dissertation: The Stories We Planted: A Narrative Exploration of Evaluative School Experience Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219

SMASH isn’t new — it’s been doing things differently for over 50 years, emphasizing multi-age classrooms, social-emotional learning, looping, and strong adult-child relationships. Jessica Rishe (principal) and Malika Boyer (6th grade teacher) share how the school cultivates trust, responsibility, and belonging across all grade levels — and why it still stands out even as others catch on to ideas like project-based learning and social-emotional learning. Highlights from the conversation include: how multi-age groupings shape student growth and leadership; the importance of a fully informed and integrated parent population; why respect goes much further than titles and first names; how SMASH builds a culture that encourages staff to stay; whether students feel prepared and are able to excel as they move on to more traditional high school environments; can the model scale as the school continues to grow; what influence SMASH has had on the greater community; and a lightning round that will have you feeling lucky!  Learn more about SMASH: www.smmusd.org/smash Questions? Thoughts? Feedback?  Email us at  [email protected] or Tweet us at @jal_mehta and @Rodroad219