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The podcast has just clocked over 10,150 downloads. THANK YOU. And we're a bit tired, so we're taking a break over the US summer — with a new season coming your way September 2026. BUT we need you. We want to know... 🎙️ What conversations are being avoided right now? 🎙️ What’s something you think about or discuss privately, but rarely hear discussed openly? The best episodes usually start with someone saying: “Can someone please talk about this?” Use this form to anonymously (or nonymously) drop your ideas, hot takes, sticky questions, or niche orchestra dilemmas below ⬇️https://lnkd.in/eM4asFmA Maybe you’re keen put your hand up to join us for a live coaching or problem-solving session.?? See you in August with fresh voices, fresh conversations, and hopefully slightly more sleep.

In this episode, Ingrid and Susan unpack Ingrid's perspective of organisation dynamics within an orchestra, from her point of view as assistant conductor. This role bridges the gap between playing and non-playing staff in an orchestra, and experiences the benefits and challenges of this border zone. This week, Ingrid draws out the commonalities between these two main parts of an orchestra, and lays out a way of engaging with both parts that makes the most of their connection and interdependence. 🌉 We need a wide bridge between performers and non-performers – the more people who know what’s going on in both parts, the better our organisations will function and the healthier our people will be. 🛠️ There are lots of jobs that need doing in an orchestra – and many of them are invisible. The more visible we can make every role, the better we can function as a unified team. 👂We need to learn to listen without judgement, to learn about the varied experiences of the people around us. This is not natural for many of us who have spent years learning to listen with judgement in musical contexts. For more on seeing each others’ perspective, have a listen back to episode four of this season!   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

We hear and use the phrase “artistic excellence” in so many ways – a justification for decisions, a way of talking about the status quo, a slur against those we disagree with. But what actually is it? In this episode, Susan and Ingrid deconstruct the idea of artistic excellence, from Susan’s perspective of relational health in an organisation, and Ingrid’s position of music making. They decipher what we mean when we say this phrase, and how we can use it intentionally to give the message we really mean to give.   🤹‍♂️ Different organisations, different ensembles, different positions all have different requirements for artistic excellence. The clearer we are on what we’re looking for, the clearer we can be about whether or not we found it. “I’ll know it when I hear it” is not enough. 🤝 We don’t have to agree on what “artistic excellence” means to each of us individually, but we do need to have consensus on what it means to all of us collectively. Affirm the range of opinions, and then find unity for this specific group. 🎨 Is “artistic excellence” code for “technical excellence?” If so, we can just say what we mean. We know that art cannot be judged by technical perfection, so artistic excellence is not a useful phrase for this kind of evaluation.   What does artistic excellence mean to you? What part of that do you want to keep, what do you want to move away from, and what might you want to add to what you have received from your teachers and heroes and colleagues? It’s so much better for everyone if we only hold ourselves to definitions we actually agree with.   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

On this episode, Susan and Ingrid take the feedback discussion into Ingrid's area of expertise: conducting. They discuss how to receive feedback as a conductor, how to support conductors in their ongoing development, and how to create an atmosphere of healthy feedback in an orchestra. Conducting is not magic. It’s a skill like anything else, and needs to be developed and supported in the same way as any role in the orchestra. 🧑‍💼 A conductor needs to be aware of where feedback from players is coming from: varying levels of comfort with giving feedback, varying levels of expertise in giving feedback, and varying dynamics depending on the hierarchy of the orchestra. 🪢 There is inherent tension in developing conducting skills: conductors need to lead with authority and certainty, but growth requires flexibility and openness. Conductor training programs need guardrails to make sure conductors are given the kind of feedback they need, from the right people, in a safe environment – like an instrumental masterclass. 📪 Our system tends not to be set up to give conductors quality feedback – feedback can be delayed by months, and is by necessity heavily filtered. Supporting top quality conducting requires timely, specific feedback, and upfront agreements about how feedback is given.   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid recognise that classical music is an industry that often causes psychological harm, in a way that other industries do not. Fortunately, it is very possible to unlearn harmful practices, and to make choices that change the way our organisations operate – the rapid development of hearing safety in orchestras is a good example of this. The idea of suffering is central to many of our musical cultures, and we need to start having the conversation about what actually helps people thrive in the classical music industry.    🤐 Many of us learn that in order to stay in the system, progress in the system, and succeed in the system, we need to stay quiet about our suffering. 🚀 Suffering escalates: first it becomes invisible, then normalised, then necessary, then competitive. 🧑‍💼 Some good questions to ask ourselves and our colleagues: “What would an outsider see here?” “What other ways might there be of doing this?”   If this conversation has brought up awareness of suffering that you have experienced, know that this doesn’t have to be the reality in our industry. Seek support, and support those around you in their own experiences, as we work together to improve the way we support everyone in our industry to thrive.   LINKS Pelletier, B. (2025). Effects of Sleep Extension on Musical Performance Skills. Music & Science, 8. "While further research is necessary to establish causality and explore long-term effects... the findings underscore sleep extension's potential to significantly enhance musical skills and psychological flexibility among musicians, potentially opening new avenues for optimizing performance and fostering resilience in creative pursuits." Bergen, P. (2024). Substance use in Australian orchestras: a scoping study "Previous research has established that musicians use a range of substances to manage performance anxiety, with beta-blockers and alcohol reported as the most common. To discover current patterns of use, we distributed an anonymous, online scoping survey to all professional Australian orchestras. The survey response rate was 17% of musicians, and representative of orchestral instrument groupings, with just over 50% of participants reporting using substances to manage performance anxiety. The most used substance was beta blockers, but other drugs and recreational substances were also reported. Notably, substance use does not noticeably ease for musicians with permanent orchestral jobs as they age." Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid dive more deeply into a question that came up frequently in Susan's recent workshops on feedback with the League of American Orchestras: what do I do when a colleague takes feedback badly? Susan and Ingrid discuss what might be going on under the surface for those around us, how to give feedback effectively, and what we actually mean by 'taking feedback badly.'   🤕 What might people really be reacting to when they react to our feedback? Our training model in music can be an unsafe place to receive feedback, which sets us up to react to things we’ve experienced in the past, rather than the thing in front of us in our workplace. 📝 How we frame feedback matters. We need to be aware of how our choice of words can help the people around us feel safe enough to receive feedback with clarity and openness. 🛠️ Praise = specific notes on what was good, constructive feedback = what to do differently next time, destructive feedback = what was bad this time. Destructive feedback by itself is not useful and can cause harm. 🗺️  Within constructive feedback, feed BACK = what happened, feed UP = what happens next, feed FORWARD = what we’re working towards. Research indicates that 40% feed back, 60% feed up and forward, is the optimum balance.   They are not giving you a hard time. They’re having a hard time.   LINKS Gary E. McPherson: Feedback in Music Performance Teaching (2022 article in Frontiers in Psychology) Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid discuss how each person's version of success differs, but these versions can exist at the same time within an organisation – in fact, for a thriving organisation, that diversity is crucially important. They talk about the mismatch between what we might believe we signed up for and the actual reality of a role, and how organisations can make this clearer for better outcomes for everybody. Some good questions:  🎻 When auditioning or interviewing for a role, are we representing that role accurately with our process, and our choice of excerpts and interview questions? This is our first chance to set people up to succeed, by choosing the person who is best for this actual role. Also, clear expectations are vital for psychosocial safety. 🎓 Educators, are we providing opportunities for young musicians that represent the reality of a modern music career? Are we doing education concerts, playing with click tracks, learning to play live with a film? Sometimes we don't even have to teach it – but we do need to talk about the things that make a career in music sustainable. 👥 What is it for, and who is it for? Our training model sets us up to expect a certain set of motivations, but the reality is that our work is mostly for the audience. We need to be united as an organisation around a clear shared purpose.   Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid share some thoughts and stories about blame, diverse roles, and the fact that everyone is trying their best. It can be so easy with our efficiency-seeking brains to quickly mark out whose "fault" something is, and use simple reductionist language to describe complex situations. In our complex organisations made up of complex people, we need to honour complexity! 🔑 Key Takeaways: 🫵 Avoid binary, 'blameism' language that reduces complexity and generalises experience  - us and them, right or wrong, always or never. 🌺 A blame-free environment is an environment that allows people to take risks for constant improvement, and allows everyone to focus on the big picture of success. 🏔️ Remember that we are on the top of Mt Stupid, and that's ok. Assume competence, assume good will - and be aware of what other assumptions we might be making.   LINKS Mentioned this week:  Brene Brown (Feelings)  Feelings Wheel tool Adam Grant (Mt Stupid)   Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid discuss the way just about everybody in an orchestra can feel like they're the only one who knows how hard their job is. This is an intense environment, and it can be easy to forget that the systems in a classical music organisation are as finely tuned and interrelated as the ensembles they support. Join Susan and Ingrid for a chat about how we can appreciate the difficult work of those around us, and gracefully let others know about the work we're doing in our own roles.   🔑 Key Takeaways:  🔎 Everyone's job has its own complexity - we need to be able to broaden our lens to see what is going on for those around us. 🧩 Everyone starts with just their piece of the puzzle - as leaders, our job is to show the lid of the puzzle box to let everyone know what we're doing, and trust that everyone is playing their puzzle piece to their full potential. 🔧 It is vitally important to recognise the expertise and preparation of offstage staff, in the same way as we recognise the expertise and preparation of instrumentalists.   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

This week, Susan and Ingrid discuss feedback: what it is, what it isn't, and how to give it to those around us. They discuss how poor feedback is often baked into our pedagogical lineage, and Ingrid shares a story of how an exemplary piece of feedback has shaped her journey as an educator and leader. 🔑 Key takeaways: 🕵️ It's important to be aware of ourselves and our situation, and how that may impact how feedback is received. 🏃 Feedback is actionable – never just a list of mistakes. It's easy to get this tangled! 📨 The way we give feedback matters for everyone in every situation, from the podium to the office to the boardroom.   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

Join Susan and Ingrid as they launch Season 6 of Change Your Tune, a collaboration between the Change Your Tune Podcast and the Conducting Artistry Podcast. In this first episode, Susan and Ingrid welcome you to this new series of conversations about how to make classical music better for everyone. They discuss their own musical, professional and creative journeys leading to this point, from emergency wards to band rooms, and give you an idea of what you can expect from Change Your Tune in 2026.   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

In episode 2 of Change Your Tune's collaboration with the Conducting Artistry podcast, Susan and Ingrid discuss the sentiment behind the phrase "Nobody dies at the orchestra", unpacking both its positive motives and its potential for unwanted consequences. They offer some different ways of communicating about acceptance of imperfection in an organisation, and dive into some of their own experiences of perfectionism in the world of classical music.   The main takeaways?  🤔 Think deeply about the words we use 🎻 Be aware of when our words might be excluding those around us by speaking incorrectly about their experience  👷 Make sure we have systems in our organisations to back up our catchphrases   LINKS Find Ingrid at Ingrid Martin and Conducting Artistry Find Susan at Notable Values   PODCAST TEAM Production support and audio engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme music composed by QiQi Theme music performed by QiQi and Darby Lee   LAND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT This podcast was recorded on Waawiiyaataanong Country and produced on Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung Country. We pay our respects to Elders past and present, and acknowledge the ongoing impacts of colonisation on Indigenous communities.

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF COUNTRY I acknowledge the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Eastern Kulin Nation as the Traditional Custodians of the land on which this podcast was recorded. I pay my respects to their Elders past and present, and I recognise their enduring connection to land, waters, and culture. Sovereignty was never ceded—this always was and always will be Aboriginal land. ABOUT PETER Peter Kilpatrick, Director of Audience and Experience at Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra since April 2023, has a rich background in arts administration and marketing, with roles at Tourism Tasmania, Opera Australia, and Australian Youth Orchestra. He holds qualifications in music, marketing, and public policy, and has served on various arts organisation boards. ABOUT THIS EPISODE Can you imagine transforming burnout into a vibrant career reinvention? Join us as we unravel the inspiring journey of Peter Kilpatrick, Director of Audience and Experience at the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra. From his early days as a classical musician to his roles with Opera Australia and the Australian Youth Orchestra, Peter's story is one of resilience and adaptability. After facing the challenges of burnout, Peter made the intriguing move into remedial massage therapy, only to find his way back into the arts via communications and marketing, ultimately shaping the brand identity of Tasmania. His experience offers a masterclass in turning life's detours into meaningful opportunities. Peter's journey isn't just about career pivots; it's also a deep dive into personal growth and leadership. Discover how a transformative leadership program inspired by Brené Brown reshaped his understanding of vulnerability, communication, and self-awareness. We delve into the importance of equipping young musicians with the skills necessary to navigate the competitive music industry, nurturing their potential for sustainable success. Peter shares insights into the power of reflective practice and the role of self-responsibility in fostering professional and personal growth. Explore the cultural impact of music beyond the stage, as Peter discusses his transition from massage therapy to marketing, and his contributions to Brand Tasmania. Learn how the Tasmanian Symphony Orchestra connects with diverse audiences and enriches community life, moving beyond traditional performances. Peter's passion for music and his enduring involvement with the Glenorchy City Concert Brass band highlight the profound impact music has had on his life's journey, celebrating his 35-year friendship and connections within the music sector. Tune in for an enlightening discussion that intertwines personal transformation with the vibrant cultural tapestry of Tasmania. LINKS Find Peter on LinkedIN   PODCAST TEAM Production Support and Audio Engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme Music Composed by Danna Yun Theme Music Performed by Jasper Ly  RECORDED Recorded on 10 January 2025

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF COUNTRY This episode was recorded in Tāmaki Makaurau. I acknowledge the mana whenua of Tāmaki Makaurau, Ngāti Whātua Ōrākei, and all iwi of this region. I honour the Indigenous people, their land, waters, and traditions. I also acknowledge their ancestors, the guardians of the past, and their present leaders. ABOUT DAVID David is Principal Trumpet with the Adelaide Symphony Orchestra, and has also performed with the Tasmanian, Queensland and Melbourne Symphony Orchestras. He studied trumpet at the Queensland and Elder Conservatories, and also privately with Yoram Levy in Tasmania and Hannes Laeubin in Munich. Before earning a full-time position in the ASO, David enjoyed a12-year career in Orchestral Management and Production. David is married to ASO violinist, Janet Anderson, with whom he has two children, Ella and Billy. ABOUT THIS EPISODE David’s story takes a different path from many of our previous guests—rather than stepping away from performing, his journey is one of rising through the ranks within the orchestral world. We dive into his experiences with auditions and trials, exploring how years of working with the orchestra in various roles prepared him for this career-defining moment. David reflects on what it means to join an orchestra where he already felt at home, balancing the comfort of familiarity with the intense pressure of auditions. Our conversation unpacks the emotional weight of auditions and the value of honest, constructive feedback. We explore how musicians navigate intense scrutiny, learning to address critiques while holding onto their strengths. David shares the mix of relief and elation that came with finally securing his position after multiple attempts, underscoring the role of self-belief and internal readiness in meeting artistic expectations. Beyond performance, we also explore the less conventional career pathways in music—how stepping into operational roles within an orchestra can provide a fresh perspective. With experience on both sides, David challenges traditional boundaries between musicianship and administration, offering insights into the reality of balancing personal and professional life, particularly when both partners are musicians. Finally, we highlight the often unseen contributions of orchestra administrators, reinforcing the importance of collaboration, gratitude, and community in sustaining a thriving musical career. David’s story is a testament to resilience, passion, and the many ways musicians shape the orchestral world.   PODCAST TEAM Production Support and Audio Engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme Music Composed by Danna Yun Theme Music Performed by Jasper Ly  RECORDED Recorded on 06 December 2024

ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF COUNTRY I acknowledge the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Eastern Kulin Nation as the Traditional Custodians of the land on which this podcast was recorded. I pay my respects to their Elders past and present, and I recognise their enduring connection to land, waters, and culture. Sovereignty was never ceded—this always was and always will be Aboriginal land. ABOUT JESSICA "I am an oboist turned software developer. When I was a musician, I founded and ran JDW Sheet Music and performed all throughout Southern California. As a developer, I create well maintained solutions that address business challenges. My hobbies include reading, and practicing oboe for fun." ABOUT THIS EPISODE Jessica Wilkins, a musician turned tech enthusiast, joins us to share her fascinating journey from concert halls to coding. With a rich background from the Eastman School of Music and the University of Michigan, Jessica’s career in music was as vibrant as it was entrepreneurial. She ran a successful publishing company in Los Angeles, blending creativity, ambition, and adaptability in ways you wouldn’t expect. But then, something shifted. Her drive to advocate for Black artists in classical and jazz music sparked an unexpected pivot to tech. After building the Black Excellence Music Project website, Jessica discovered a passion for coding that led her to dive deep into online learning platforms. Faced with the choice between a high-profile gig at Disney or plunging into the tech world, she chose the latter—and hasn’t looked back. In this episode, Jessica reveals how her self-taught coding journey opened doors in software development. She shares why building real-world projects is key to showcasing your skills and how her transition from freelance musician to full-time tech role taught her the value of navigating team dynamics and setting healthy workplace boundaries. Stepping away from music also gave her space to cultivate personal growth and compassion, which has enriched both her professional life and her creative collaborations. LINKS Find Jessica on LinkedIN blackexcellencemusicproject.com   PODCAST TEAM Production Support and Audio Engineering by Thomas Grayden Theme Music Composed by Danna Yun Theme Music Performed by Jasper Ly  RECORDED Recorded on 13 January 2025