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⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ How do you create a culture of flourishing in your marriage when you both bring different stories, preferences and goals? No matter how similar to our partner we think we are before marriage, there are often big differences in vision and preferences for the present and the future. Building upon the tools from the Gottman Institute, Alex discusses questions and strategies to help you explore your individual goals, navigate differences in opinion and preference and build shared meaning and purpose with your spouse. Resources: The Gottman Institute Season 13 Episode 5 Tool: Creating Shared Meaning and Purpose Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Every day, we feel the weight of the brokenness in our world. Brokenness that strains our relationships. It can be hard for us to believe the best days are ahead. That one day what’s broken will be made whole — that our broken stories, hearts and relationships will be made whole. The Grand Narrative reminds us that our lives now are a “trailer” for a greater story. It shows us that our marriages are designed to bring us delight and flourishing, to point us to the oneness we will experience with the Lord and the saints in the new heavens and the new earth. The sweetness we experience in this life is only a shadow of the beauty we will one day experience. It’s these pieces of heaven we see, in spite of the brokenness, that help us look forward with hope. Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Brokenness and ruptures in relationships are inevitable.  We live in a world where sin has distorted our relationships. But because Jesus conquered sin and death, brokenness isn’t the end of God’s Grand Narrative and doesn’t have to define our marriage stories. When our words or actions cause a rift in relationships, we need to make a good repair. But these repairs aren’t always easy. Sometimes repairs take time. And sometimes, even when repairs are made, restoration isn’t possible right away — or at all. Alex shares why making a good repair is vital for relationships and how you can navigate conflict resolution with your spouse.  Resources: Season 13 Episode 4 Tool: Redemption: Making a Good Repair Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Do you worry that your spouse sees but doesn’t accept you? Do you feel insecure in the relationship?  When sin entered the world through the Fall, God’s good design was distorted. Our sense of agency, purpose, belonging, and rest was distorted, not only in our individual lives but in our marriages. But the Fall wasn’t the end of our story. Because of Jesus’ sacrifice and our redemption, we have hope! Now, Jesus is “untwisting” what the Fall distorted so we can delight in our marriages and flourish in relationship. When we understand He loves us and delights in us, then we can truly delight in and love our spouses. When we’re secure in Him, we can more confidently approach our spouses to share our sin and pain and suffering. This one-flesh relationship of marriage doesn’t happen when we walk down the aisle. It requires the daily work of reorienting ourselves to God’s redemptive story while we walk together moment by moment. Resources: The Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon and Reed Dent Season 1 Episode 1: The Lens: Saint, Sufferer, Sinner Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ How do you handle conflict? Do you face it head-on or does it make you want to leave the room? Do you prefer not to address it and instead do nice things for your partner in hopes that the conflict will just blow over? We all have different ways we handle conflict, and chances are you and your spouse might have two very different approaches. And when both of you are approaching conflict differently, what started as a disagreement about one thing can turn into a much bigger fight. Alex explains different relational styles when it comes to conflict and shares healthy, loving communication strategies to help you navigate disagreements in the moment. Resources: Season 13 Episode 3 Tool: Fall: Relational Trends Season 13 Episode 3 Tool: Relational Trends Chart ​​Season 13 Episode 3 Tool: Redemption: Making a Good Repair Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Some days we feel like we can handle the stressors in our lives. Other days it feels like if one more thing happens, we’re going to break down, shut down, or lash out. We all have a window of tolerance. When we’re within this window of emotional and mental stability, we feel we can handle life's challenges. Yes, we might feel stressed and will definitely still encounter problems, yet we feel we can stay emotionally regulated through them. But when we’re outside this window, it’s a different story. When we try to solve conflict or respond to our spouse when we’re outside our window, it probably won’t end well for either person. Alex provides a tool to help us first understand our and our partner’s window of tolerance and then to respect when either partner needs to pause. Resources: Season 13 Episode 3 Tool: Fall: Taking a Pause Season 13 Episode 3 Tool: Window of Tolerance Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ When communication is falling apart, when your spouse feels more like an enemy than a partner, when illness or circumstances are straining your relationship — that’s when we really feel how the Fall affects our marriages.  Instead of thinking about delighting in one another, we can place our identity in our spouse, losing our own sense of self in the process. We can fear losing the relationship and compromise on our boundaries to find what we think is peace. So how do we get back to a “good place” in our marriage? One where we’re delighting in our spouse and our marriage. We first need to figure out what’s being distorted in our marriages. Then we can work together as we reorient our marriage story in light of God’s bigger story, the Grand Narrative. Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Do you feel like you and your partner are missing each other?  Both of you are trying to communicate love and communicate what you need. But you’re still feeling distant, unsupported, or undervalued. It can be easy to lose touch with your spouse, especially when life becomes busy and overwhelming. But we’ve found two tools that are helpful to cultivate connection. These tools from The Gottman Institute may not feel like grand gestures. Yet they can be small touchpoints throughout the day that help you and your partner feel connected, even in conflict! Resources: The Gottman Institute Season 13 Episode 2 Tool Worksheet Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ “If marriage is good, then why doesn’t mine feel that way?” What should we do when our marriages don’t feel like a delight? When they don’t feel like they’ll ever be a good thing? When our marriages are difficult, we feel the weight of the Fall. And we can forget God’s original design. Even though there is sin and conflict in the world now, God still created and intends now for marriage to be a good thing for us and His kingdom. A life-giving thing. The Grand Narrative, God’s big story of redemption, encourages us to take a 10,000-foot view of our marriage story and to look at God’s design. We are created to be image-bearers, and HE calls us very good. He created marriage between two image-bearers as a good thing. In marriage, we can strive for what could be. We can delight in the good we see in our spouse and encourage them to grow towards God’s design when they are facing sin, temptation or destructive habits that aren’t helping them flourish. God’s design for marriage doesn’t excuse sin. But it helps us reframe our view of our spouse to see God’s good design. Resources: The Gottman Method Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ We don’t just bring two people into a marriage. We also bring our stories.  Sometimes there is abuse, hurt, sin and suffering on the pages of our stories. Sometimes we bring pictures of marriage that we’ve seen in our own families, pictures that can be good and bad. When spouses disagree on what their marriage should look like, it’s not because one is completely right and the other completely wrong. Often, we’ve created a picture for doing marriage the “right way” because that’s how our families or experiences have taught us it should be. That’s why we’re sharing a tool to help you and your spouse discern your Family Culture.  This tool isn’t to judge you. It’s to encourage you to be kind to yourself as you look back on who and what are influencing you and to help you determine what needs to change for you and your spouse. Resources: Emotionally Healthy Discipleship by Peter Scazzero Tool 1 Worksheet Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Is marriage even worth it? What should a biblical marriage look like? What does it mean to live as God’s people in the realm of husband and wife?  Are we missing the bigger story? This season, we’re exploring what God says about marriage! But we’re not starting where you might think. Whether you’re married right now or not, we’re sure you’ve heard a lot of teaching on marriage. Maybe some teaching that’s made you weary.  Some focus merely on roles and responsibility. Some can elevate traditions of men over precepts in God’s word. But we’re taking a step back from the most referenced texts on marriage to examine marriage through the lens of the Grand Narrative, God’s big story of redemption. Zooming out helps us develop a richer and more nuanced paradigm for marriage. It helps us see the heart of the Designer and His purpose for us as image bearers inside and outside marriage.  Because God has a lot to say that applies to marriage! Resources: Conversational Counseling Season 7: Grand Narrative Season 13 of Conversational Counseling on “Marriage.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ We often hear “I’m only human” as an exasperated admission. But what if being human isn’t the problem but the whole point?  Marty Solomon invites us to a theological framework that starts with our belovedness rather than skipping forward to our brokenness. As The BEMA Podcast host shares about his new book, The Gospel of Being Human (NavPress, April 2026), he posited that humanity being made in the image of God is the most real reality about our nature. That sin is real and has real consequences, but that it is not where the story starts. That if we can trust the story and trust the God of the story, we can put our faith into words that are meaningful and that hold the integrity of sound theology. One of the things our board member and pastor friend, Adam Coppock, calls us to do as we engage ideas and theology, like the concepts in Marty’s new book, is to make sure that we are not just listening to voices from our own specific tradition. So that we can approach discipleship and counseling from a place of curiosity, doing the liberating and hard work of growth and transformation so we can have a bigger view of who God is.  There’s a playfulness that can emerge when we ask questions of God, which can only shine through when we are comfortable in His presence. When we know that where sin abounds, His grace abounds all the more.  Resources: The Gospel of Being Human by Marty Solomon and Reed Dent The BEMA Podcast S3 Bonus: Marty Solomon Conversation Jesus Storybook Bible by Sally Lloyd-Jones To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Is it unloving or selfish to set a boundary? If I forgive someone, does that mean I must restore the relationship and have no boundaries? How do boundaries work with “honor your father and mother”? In this episode, we dive into some of the most common questions we hear in the counseling room and in daily conversations! As you are setting boundaries in your own life, just remember. We have to be Spirit-led in every decision. Boundaries bring clarity to both healthy and unhealthy relationships by helping us take a step back to examine the relationship. No relationship will look the same, and neither will your boundaries.  When they’re done wisely and done well, boundaries are not selfish. Instead, they establish a place for trust to be rebuilt and reconciliation to be pursued. Resources: Conversational Counseling Season 2: Forgiveness The Place We Find Ourselves with Adam Young: Episodes 75 and 76 Season 12 of Conversational Counseling is all about “Boundaries.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Boundaries can hurt. But that doesn’t mean you’re doing something wrong by setting them. God has placed in all of us dignity, purpose, agency, and limits, and they’re all worth protecting. Setting boundaries to protect each of these can feel selfish, as if our comfort or our opinions matter more than another person’s. So we often let other people run over us.  We might recognize that boundaries make sense, but we don’t want to face the grief boundaries bring because of unmet expectations or the loss of a relationship. Yet boundaries don’t just serve or benefit us. They honor and reaffirm everyone involved in the conflict as an image bearer. They remind other people that God has something better for them than their destructive choices or behavior. When we set a boundary, we shouldn’t set it expecting a specific outcome. We should set them to preserve, protect, and honor who we are — and who they are — as image bearers.  Resources: S12 E5 Worksheet Season 12 of Conversational Counseling is all about “Boundaries.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.

⁠>> Click HERE to get free visuals, handouts and discussion questions for Conversational Counseling sent straight to your email! ⁠ Talk about having boundaries is everywhere… it’s all around us in our culture! But how do we actually walk out having boundaries with wisdom and love in real-life situations with real-life people? It’s easy to talk about hypothetical boundaries and frameworks for setting them…until a real person is standing in front of us, waiting for us to share our boundary. Once we realize we need to set a boundary, the next step is planning. Before going through the motions to set the boundary, determine a simple boundary and a simple way to set it. Start small and remember that the relationship won’t be fixed in one conversation or with one boundary. Then remember to give grace for the inevitable missteps and discomfort. Setting boundaries is a new skill, one that will feel uncomfortable when we start. Imagine a toddler who’s just learned to walk. She’ll stumble and fall and step on people’s toes. That’s how most of us will feel when we present a boundary. By creating a boundary, we’re not trying to change another person. We’re changing the dynamics of a relationship and what we will tolerate. We’re choosing love and wisdom in our own lives and providing an opportunity for a loved one to do the same in new ways. Resources: S12 E4 Worksheet Season 12 of Conversational Counseling is all about “Boundaries.” To sign up for free visuals and discussion questions for this season, click ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠here⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Our theme music is by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠As Isaac⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. This podcast is made possible by engineer and producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Shane Selby⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, executive producer ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Meleah Smith⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠, and ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠generous donors⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Conversational Counseling⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ is ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Alex Kocher⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ and Brenda Payne.