Advertise on podcast: Valley of Depth

In this episode of Valley of Depth, we sit down with Jack Kuhr, Payload Pro’s Research Director, to unpack what SpaceX has become on the eve of what could be the largest IPO in history. What began as a launch company has evolved into a vertically integrated platform spanning launch, satellites, global connectivity, and potentially AI and compute in space.This is the first in a series of conversations where we’ll regularly update our audience on the latest developments shaping SpaceX and its impact on the broader space economy. We discuss: How Starlink has overtaken launch as SpaceX’s primary growth engineWhy Starlink’s constraints are more likely terminals, regulation, and physics—not satellitesHow international markets are powering the next phase of Starlink’s expansionWhy aviation and maritime are the most underappreciated Starlink verticalsWhether Starlink “Lite” can meaningfully take share from traditional ISPsHow Starship and Starlink V3 could upend Falcon 9 economicsWhy the SpaceX–xAI merger points to a fully integrated space, connectivity, and AI stack• Chapters • 00:00 - Intro 01:09 - Jack's role at Payload and what is it 04:06 - Jack's revenue model for SpaceX 08:06 - Launch and Starlink 09:23 - Is SpaceX privatizing launch or is there less demand? 12:07 - Starlink's current revenue runway trajectory 14:31 - 2026 projects and potential growth pains 16:41 - Starlink constraints 19:00 - US vs international customers 19:53 - Starlink terminal sales 21:10 - What is currently under appreciated about Starlink's verticals? 22:52 - Starlink Light 24:34 - Competition from GEO broadband providers 33:07 - Starship 34:45 - When will Starlink launch their first commercial, non Starlink payloads 38:22 - Is SpaceX serious about space based data centers? 42:06 - SpaceX x Tesla x xAI   • Show notes • Payload Pro’s website — https://pro.payloadspace.com/ Jack’s socials — https://x.com/JackKuhr Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com

We’re excited to launch a very special edition of Valley of Depth, recorded live from the historic vault deep beneath the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE). Going forward, we’ll be returning to the NYSE each month to host a series of conversations from the heart of global capital markets with the leaders building the next generation of critical infrastructure. In this installment, we sit down with John Serafini, CEO of Hawkeye 360, a company quietly reshaping how governments see and understand the world. While many space companies focus on imagery or communications, Hawkeye 360 is doing something different: listening. By mapping radio-frequency emissions from orbit, the company is turning invisible signals into actionable intelligence, revealing patterns of human behavior that imagery alone can’t capture. We discuss: How space-based RF mapping changes what “global transparency” actually meansWhy signals intelligence is uniquely tied to human activity and intentHow Hawkeye’s multi-satellite architecture enables precise geolocation at scaleWhat it takes to detect dark vessels, GPS jamming, and spoofing in near real timeWhy RF data, software, and proprietary signal libraries form a durable competitive moatHow commercial SIGINT is becoming core infrastructure for governments globally• Chapters • 00:00 - Intro 00:58 - What makes Hawkeye 360's satellites so special? 02:45 - Why is having RF capability important today 04:51 - What were the limitations of RF satellites before now? 06:38 - Why are there so few companies in the RF space? 08:35 - What Hawkeye is able to detect 13:46 - Satellites in a trio formation 17:21 - Fingerprinting points of interest 18:14 - What can Hawkeye 360 track? 21:33 - GPS jamming and spoofing 22:19 - How John got into this business 24:37 - Market size for RF capability 28:00 - Data licenses 30:56 - Next steps for Hawkeye's revisit rate 32:33 - China's capabilities 33:17 - Why did Hawkeye 360 acquire Innovative Signal Analysis (ISA)? 34:28 - Buy vs build 36:43 - John's stance on datacenters in space 37:55 - Investor confidence around Hawkeye 39:50 - The impact of SpaceX going public 42:02 - Is 2026 the year Hawkeye goes public? 44:59 - Will countries start building RF shields? 45:39 - Ultimate goal of Hawkeye • Show notes • Hawkeye’s website — https://www.he360.com/ Hawkeye’s socials — https://x.com/hawkeye360 Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com

As constraints on energy, water, and permitting collide with exploding demand for AI and compute, a once-fringe idea is moving rapidly toward the center of the conversation: putting data centers in space. Starcloud believes orbital infrastructure isn’t science fiction—it’s a necessary extension of the global compute stack if scaling is going to continue at anything close to its current pace. Founded by Philip Johnston, Starcloud is building space-based compute systems designed to compete on cost, performance, and scale with terrestrial data centers. The company has already flown a data center–grade GPU in orbit and is now working toward larger, commercially viable systems that could reshape where and how AI is powered.   We discuss: How energy and permitting constraints are reshaping the future of compute Why space-based data centers may be economically inevitable, not optional What Starcloud proved by running an H100 GPU in orbit How launch costs, watts-per-kilogram, and chip longevity define the real economics The national security implications of who controls future compute capacity   • Chapters • 00:00 - Intro 00:50 - The issue with data centers 02:20 - Explosion of the data center debates 04:58 - Philip's 5GW data center rendering and early conceptions of data centers in space at YC 08:16 - Proving people wrong 11:17 - The team at Starcloud today 12:29 - Competing against SpaceX's data center 14:42 - Sam Altman's beef with Starlink 16:52 - Economics of Orbital vs Terrestrial Data Centers by Andrew McCallip 21:33 - Where are we putting these things? 23:50 - Latency in space 25:59 - Political side of building data centers 28:36 - Starcloud 1 30:16 - Space based processors 30:51 - Shakespeare in space 32:00 - Hardening an Nvidia H100 against radiation and making chips in space economical 34:43 - Cooling systems in space 36:01 - How Starcloud is thinking about replacing failed GPUs 38:46 - The mission for Starcloud 2 40:05 - Competitors outside of SpaceX 40:49 - Getting to economical launch costs 44:35 - Will the next great wars be over water and power for data centers? 46:25 - What keeps Philip up at night? 47:11 - What keeps Mo up at night?   • Show notes • Starcloud’s website — https://www.starcloud.com/ Philip’s socials — https://x.com/PhilipJohnston Mo's socials — https://x.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.com

As more nations realize that space is no longer just a scientific domain but a foundation of economic power and national security, a new question is emerging: who will actually build the infrastructure that underpins it? Orbitworks believes the answer lies in sovereign capability: designed locally, manufactured locally, and operated with speed and control. Founded by Hamdullah Mohib, a former national security advisor and diplomat who spent years operating at the highest levels of geopolitics, Orbitworks sits at an unusual intersection of statecraft and space manufacturing. Based in Abu Dhabi, the company is building one of the region’s first commercial satellite manufacturing facilities and developing Altair, a native constellation designed to move beyond raw imagery and toward information-driven services for both sovereign and commercial customers. We discuss: How Orbitworks is building a commercial satellite industry from scratch in the UAEThe strategic logic behind flexible architectures over fixed hardwareHow the Middle East is positioning itself as a serious node in the global space economyWhat it takes to build talent, supply chains, and culture in a brand-new space ecosystem  • Chapters • 00:00 - Intro 00:59 - Hamdullah's journey from government and geopolitics to space 05:11 - What is Orbitworks? 06:25 - Partnerships with Orbitworks 08:43 - A joint venture 09:40 - Partnering with Loft Orbital 17:09 - Differences that founders experience in the Middle East 21:26 - Altair constellation 23:29 - Dual use commercial and government 26:34 - Building a facility in KEZAD 33:02 - Cultivating and nurturing talent 34:30 - How the Middle East is thinking about space 40:21 - Priorities of sovereign wealth funds 42:33 - Lessons in leadership 47:08 - Fundraising plans/goals 48:47 - Hamdullah's vision for space in the Middle East 50:46 - What excites Hamdullah the most about the space industry?   • Show notes • Orbitwork’s website —https://www.orbitworks.space/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

We're back to kick off 2026! While the world debates how to power the next era of compute, data centers, and industrial growth, Overview Energy is betting the answer is above us. The company is building infrastructure to beam power from space directly to Earth's grid. Founded by Marc Berte, a nuclear and aerospace engineer who spent his career at the intersection of lasers, spacecraft, and high-energy systems, Overview is developing a constellation of satellites in geosynchronous orbit that absorb sunlight, convert it to near-infrared laser light, and transmit it to existing utility-scale solar projects on the ground. No new receivers required. By using wide-beam, passively safe transmission and off-the-shelf ground infrastructure, Overview aims to deliver dispatchable, redirectable power anywhere on the planet, turning space solar from science fiction into grid-scale reality. We discuss: Why space solar energy is finally viable after decades of false startsHow Overview's architecture avoids the in-space assembly problem entirelyHow the economics work: matching cost curves to high-price markets firstWhy GEO matters more than LEO for grid-scale power deliveryThe role of launch cost as the critical external variableWhy space solar could be the demand flywheel that drives launch costs down for everyone• Chapters • 00:00 - Intro 00:48 - The main problem Overview Energy is solving and why now 04:34 - Why didn’t Marc pursue nuclear fusion/fission? 05:34 - Incubated in Vast 06:32 - State of the art today? 09:58 - Acquisition and beaming down of solar energy and its efficiency 12:23 - Safety, regulatory, and precision constraints 14:54 - Competitive positioning in space solar power 16:20 - Economics of orbital energy vs terrestrial renewables 19:25 - How much more should someone be paying for orbital energy 23:46 - Who will be their first customers? 25:39 - What does the infrastructure look like? 27:39 - Biggest bottleneck for orbital energy 29:34 - Are current launch costs at the level needed for Overview Energy to kick off? 30:27 - Commercial traction 31:46 - Testing and evaluating these systems with the DoD and NASA 33:38 - Early demonstrations and proof points 35:21 - Overview Energy’s space-based demonstration 36:22 - Chinese competition 38:30 - How much more investment is needed to achieve the first gigawatt of power from space? 40:42 - Can terrestrial renewables meet power demands without space-based energy 43:41 - Grid of the future with orbital power in the picture 44:50 - The technical unknowns of orbital energy 48:24 - Powering other space assets 49:46 - What Marc is building when he’s not working at Overview Energy   • Show notes • Overview Energy’s website — https://www.overviewenergy.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/ • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Kerry Wisnosky believes the future of space power will be decided by maneuverability. As satellites remain largely static, Quantum Space is building the infrastructure to move, persist, and operate across orbits, from LEO to cislunar space. The company is developing Ranger, a six-metric-ton, high-delta-V spacecraft designed to operate for up to 15 years, host and deploy payloads, maneuver freely between orbits, and function as a refueling node. By combining chemical and electric propulsion into a single multimode system, Quantum aims to deliver both high-impulse mobility and long-duration efficiency—turning spacecraft from disposable assets into persistent infrastructure. Inside the episode: Why space remains a static domain and why maneuverability is the next decisive advantageHow Ranger reframes satellites from disposable assets into long-lived infrastructureThe strategic importance of fuel in orbit and why refueling changes mission economicsWhy multimode propulsion is the “holy grail” for mobility across orbitsHow life extension in GEO becomes the first commercial wedgeWhat zone defense in space could mean for missile defense architecturesWhy Quantum was early to the market and why demand is finally catching up  • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:45 – From Millennium to Quantum Space 02:56 – Key products at Millennium 03:57 – Evolution of Quantum's vision over the years 06:34 – Ranger 13:41 – 15 years of operational life 16:22 – Acquiring Phase Four 22:25 – Orbital mobility 23:37 – Ranger doubling as a fuel depot 25:51 – Target customers for Ranger 30:52 – Interceptors in space for Golden Dome 33:52 – Quantum Space's competitive edge 35:27 – Are other maneuverability companies viewing the problem the wrong way? 37:18 – Quantum Space's launches 39:24 – What does success look like for Quantum's first Ranger mission? 40:21 – Scaling and manufacturing 43:53 – Why should talent work at Quantum? 45:14 – Quantum Space in 5 years 47:35 – What did Kerry not expect while building Quantum? 48:49 – When is Quantum's next launch?   • Show notes • Quantum Space’s website — https://www.quantumspace.us/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Lt. Gen. (Ret.) David “Abu” Nahom spent decades defending the American homeland, from commanding Alaska Command and the 11th Air Force to shaping Air Force budgets and strategy as the A8. Mike Dickey started his career in the original Strategic Defense Initiative, helped build the USSF and now advises companies and government leaders on the future of national security. Together, they unpack the realities behind Golden Dome: what it is, what it isn’t, and why it may be the most complex defense undertaking of our time. Inside the episode: Why homeland defense is no longer a Cold War problem and why threats across all domains demand a fundamentally new architectureWhat it actually takes to detect, track, and intercept advanced weapons, from ballistic missiles to hypersonics to low-observable cruise missilesHow command & control is the real bottleneck, and why BMC2 will define the success or failure of Golden DomeWhy integrating F-35s, space sensors, legacy radars, and new AI systems is a social-engineering challenge as much as a technical oneThe role of startups in a mission where “move fast and break things” collides with the reality of life-or-death stakesWhy public perception lags far behind the actual threat picture and what Americans get wrong about homeland defenseThe technologies on the horizon that could completely reshape missile defense in the next decade• Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:41 – David's and Mike's Backgrounds 04:01 – How Elara Nova has grown since last episode 05:17 – What makes Golden Dome different? 08:00 – How exposed has the US been to missile threats? 10:53 – What is the Golden Dome supposed to look like today? 14:02 – Not reinventing the wheel 16:38 – Capabilities of today and tomorrow 23:00 – How new modes of launch change missile defense 24:57 – Integrating new solutions with current systems 27:15 – Golden Dome isn't a technology problem 29:41 – How much does ego play into the social engineering challenge of the Golden Dome? 32:47 – Unable to fail in this startup-driven golden age of space and defense tech 36:11 – Risks of the Golden Dome budget ballooning 39:29 – The deterrence calculus 42:12 – How will Golden Dome interface with our allies 44:20 – Exciting defense tech being developed or doesn’t exist yet 46:29 – How putting weapons in space changes things 48:13 – Golden Dome issues they wish were fixed today 50:24 – What everyday Americans don't understand about the Golden Dome 53:01 – Measurable outcomes that the Golden Dome works 54:56 – What Mike and David do for fun • Show notes • Elara Nova’s website — https://elaranova.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Halen Mattison left SpaceX because Elon told him his vision was too long-term. He wanted to build the propellant infrastructure that would unlock Mars and everything between here and there, but the timeline didn't fit SpaceX's roadmap. So he started General Galactic to do it himself. His team is developing Genesis, a water electrolysis propulsion system that delivers hydrazine-level thrust and xenon-level efficiency using the safest, cheapest, most abundant propellant in the solar system. The company is targeting an orbital demonstration in 2026, with a long-term vision to operate refueling depots from LEO to Mars.   Inside the episode: • Why the space industry's fear of new technology is creating a sitting-duck opportunityHow water electrolysis unlocks both near-term mobility services and long-term ISRU infrastructureWhat "specific impulse" actually means for mission economics and why it matters more than people thinkThe Starship refueling challenge and why cryogenic propellant depots will work at scaleSequencing from mobility-as-a-service to lunar fuel production to gas stations on MarsWhy consensus-following investors miss the most ambitious bets and how to tell the contrarian story  • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 01:11 – When did Halen decide to start his own company? 02:18 – What did Halen do at SpaceX? 02:59 – Deciding moment to devote to a career in aerospace 05:16 – The current state and trajectory of Starship 07:53 – What is General Galactic building? 09:50 – General Galactic's products and end goals 12:12 – General Galactic's perspective shift on mobility in space 16:31 – Architecture vs the current market offerings 21:39 – Why is now the time to build a water electrolysis system? 24:27 – Genesis 25:42 – Hardware in space 26:19 – What would a General Galactic demonstration mission look like? 27:13 – What would product 1 look like? 28:15 – Mission capability unlocks and cost advantage 30:56 – Offering a service 31:27 – Origin and evolution of General Galactic 34:59 – Space companies that sequence well outside of SpaceX 36:06 – 4-year prediction if mobility gets adopted 38:39 – Misunderstandings about Starship's refueling logistics 42:01 – Where would General Galactic fit in the Starship ecosystem? 43:25 – What a v0.1 Mars gas station would look like 44:46 – How difficult is it to protect General Galactic's position with water electrolysis? 46:22 – Lessons from being a founder 49:30 – Sequencing   • Show notes • General Galactic’s website — https://gengalactic.com/ Halen’s socials — https://x.com/HalenMattison Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Space has a power problem. Satellites need more electricity and better protection, yet solar arrays are slow to build and failure-prone, and shielding adds mass and complexity. Atomic-6 is tackling both sides at once. Our guest this week is Trevor Smith, founder and CEO of Atomic-6. His team is building Light Wing, a redeployable, mass-manufacturable solar array aimed at higher watts per kilogram and faster delivery, and Space Armor, an RF-permeable debris shield designed to stop hypervelocity impacts while preserving comms and resisting directed energy. The company’s first on-orbit hardware is slated for February 2026, and they’re pursuing multi-billion-dollar constellation opportunities alongside a long-term purchase agreement with a private space-station builder. Inside the episode: Why reliability, not just power density, wins satellite programsHow a space power gigafactory could reset constellation economicsWhat “cell-agnostic” really means for supply chain and performanceThe new “radome for space” capability and where it matters for defenseCislunar prospects, lunar-orbit data centers, and vertical solar towersLessons from working with Space Force and navigating dual-use fundingThe state of the U.S. industrial base and why solar arrays are a top supply-chain priority  • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:47 – How Atomic-6 got started 03:06 – Building the power grid for space 04:09 – Why is Atomic-6 building what it's building 05:58 – Dollars per watt per kilo 07:18 – Cell agnostic 07:58 – How Trevor got into the space industry 09:14 – Team construction at Atomic-6 09:49 – What type of people is Atomic-6 looking for? 10:35 – Atomic-6's key product offering 10:58 – Current customers and opportunities at Atomic-6 11:38 – Pipeline 13:07 – Manufacturing scaling 14:04 – How much is an operator spending on solar arrays? 15:12 – Who would we go to today for building a satellite array and what would they be missing? 16:33 – Space Armor 19:44 – What is a radome? 20:34 – Whipple Shield deployment 21:11 – Significance of being transparent to radio signals 21:41 – Terrestrial applications for the Whipple Shield 23:24 – How Atomic-6 came to developing the Whipple Shield 24:48 – Opportunity vs Light Wing and Space Armor 25:38 – Defense traction with Space Armor 26:52 – Atomic-6's business model 29:17 – Milestones 30:35 – Vertical integration 32:34 – Other products that Atomic-6 is developing 33:42 – Developments in advanced materials that will define architecture in space 36:18 – What does success look like for Atomic-6 in 5 to 10 years? 36:59 – What keeps Trevor up at night? 38:05 – Government support 40:17 – The legacy Trevor wants Atomic-6 to leave behind   • Show notes • Atomic-6’s website — https://www.atomic-6.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Satellites are expensive and once launched, mostly untouchable.. That’s the problem Starfish Space is solving. The company is building Otter, a small, autonomous servicing vehicle capable of rendezvousing with, docking to, and moving other satellites in orbit. On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Austin Link, co-founder of Starfish Space. Austin shares how a team of former Blue Origin engineers turned a bold idea into one of the most advanced orbital servicing programs in the world. We trace Starfish’s journey from recovering a tumbling spacecraft spinning 330 degrees per second, to preparing for the first commercial docking of an unprepared satellite in orbit.   We also discuss: How Starfish closed the business case for on-orbit servicingWhat it takes to autonomously dock with a satellite moving faster than a bulletThe economics of life-extension and debris disposalLessons from the Otter Pup missionsThe dual-use future of orbital servicing for defense and resilienceThe long-term vision for a logistics layer in space…and more.   • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:59 – Starfish's mission 03:02 – Why is now the time to be building on orbit satellite servicing 04:44 – On orbit servicing with the rapid advancement of satellites 07:29 – Why leave Blue Origin to start Starfish? 09:18 – Convincing investors early on 11:22 – Results from Starfish's first few missions 13:40 – Why Starfish has fun with their names 15:43 – How the team de-tumbled the satellite 21:55 – Starfish's upcoming missions 25:37 – When will Starfish start selling their systems? 27:33 – Future business models and commercial vs government split 30:08 – How Starfish helps customers price their ROI 32:26 – Do regulations need to be placed in order for the market to thrive? 35:14 – How Starfish differs from competitors 36:29 – Current size of the satellite servicing market 37:25 – Starfish's key strength 40:19 – Insights on servicing from defense 42:51 – What changes will happen if satellite servicing becomes routine? 44:14 – Starfish's next phase in the business 45:05 – Starfish's North Star 46:19 – Overhyping the Kessler Syndrome 47:41 – What does Austin do besides working on Starfish?   • Show notes • Starfish’s website — https://www.starfishspace.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear / https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Spacecraft carry all kinds of sensors, but rarely the one humans rely on most: video. Despite offering the richest insight per watt, gram, and dollar, cameras have been largely absent from orbit.That’s what TRL11 is out to change. The company is building radiation-tolerant optics, edge computers that process and compress video in real time, and ground software that turns footage into operational awareness.   On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Nicolaas Verheem, founder and CEO of TRL11. Nicolaas shares how his journey from pioneering wireless video at Teradek, work that won both technical Academy and Emmy Awards, led him to ask why space was still flying blind. We trace TRL11’s path from early in-orbit demos to commercial traction with operators and defense, and dig into how edge intelligence and video awareness could transform the space economy.   We also discuss: • Why video is the “missing sensor” in space• Lessons from TRL11’s first orbital missionsThe three core use cases: health monitoring, mission awareness, and mission enablement• How software, not hardware, creates a lasting moat in space video• The long-term vision of human-like awareness in space…and more.   • Chapters • 01:03 – Nicol and Starwars and Startrek 03:10 – Nicol winning an Academy Award and an Emmy 04:14 – Nicol at Teradek 05:13 – How Teradek inspired Nicol's current company TRL11 06:30 – How video applies to the space industry 09:41 – Why do we need video and what problem does it solve? 12:56 – A ring camera for space 17:06 – The story behind the company name 19:32 – TRL11's current product offerings 21:43 – Showing the operator what matters on screen 24:53 – How do you build a space camera? 26:45 – What TRL11 has learned in their early orbit tests 29:06 – TRL11's primary first customers 32:25 – Making the case for investors 36:45 – Should every spacecraft have video onboard? 38:03 – The importance of video for inspiration 40:03 – Misunderstandings when it comes to video from partners, investors, and customers 41:10 – Lessons Nicol learned building a company in the space industry 42:42 – Fundraising at TRL11 44:26 – Legacy and product evolution   • Show notes • TRL11’s website — https://www.trl11.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies.  Payload: www.payloadspace.com Ignition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Smallsats have defined the last decade of space, but their limitations are clear: low power, limited throughput, and fragile unit economics. K2 Space is betting on the opposite. The company is building mega class and giga class satellites, platforms measured in tons rather than kilograms, that deliver unprecedented power, capacity, and resilience. By vertically integrating 80 percent of their systems in house, K2 is cutting costs by an order of magnitude and making industrial scale spacecraft a reality. On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Neel Kunjur, cofounder and CTO of K2 Space. Neel traces the journey from early Slack messages about the promise of MEO to a 160 person team building the largest commercial satellites ever attempted. He shares how K2 has reimagined subsystems like reaction wheels, high voltage power, and 20 kW propulsion to unlock entirely new mission architectures in MEO, GEO, and beyond.   We also discuss: Why MEO is such an underexplored orbital regimeThe engineering breakthroughs behind large reaction wheels and high voltage power systemsHow stackable satellites change constellation designThe long term vision for space infrastructure, from in space compute to energy harvesting…and more.     • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:56 – What's happened in the past two years since K2 has been on the pod 02:13 – The thesis behind K2 03:51 – What does Neel mean by aperture? 04:40 – Why do satellites need to grow in size and power? 06:59 – The rise in Medium Earth Orbit (MEO) chatter 08:49 – Why did Neel leave SpaceX and start K2 with his brother? 12:04 – Building K2 for a post Starship world 14:10 – Current and future K2 offerings 15:32 – 20 Kilowatts vs a small LEO satellite 17:10 – Giga-scale satellite 18:40 – How K2 is able to deliver $15m satellite 21:13 – K2's innovations so far 23:01 – Engineering problems that larger satellite builders have to worry about 25:08 – K2's propulsion solution to get MEO 28:11 – Engineering for Starship's current MEO blindspot 29:18 – Neel's prediction on Starship's refueling rollout 30:14 – Innovation through simplicity 33:24 – How is K2 hiring the talent for their niche challenges 35:52 – How big is K2's team today 36:43 – Key takeaways from K2's first mission 38:22 – Mission Gravitas 39:59 – Orbit race 40:39 – Mission Gravitas: Commercial or DoD? 41:33 – K2's scaling plans 43:03 – Customized vs standardized 45:17 – Overspec'd by design 45:40 – Will K2's success spur more competition? 47:23 – Will satellites become robust, industrial hardware? 48:48 – What's enabled by these large platforms? 51:01 – The paradigm shift happening in engineering for space 52:42 – Will SpaceX own LEO? 55:05 – The name and branding behind K2   • Show notes • K2’s website — http://www.k2space.com/ K2’s socials — https://x.com/K2SpaceCo Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /   https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

This episode is presented by L3Harris Technologies. On this special edition of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Kristin Houston, President of Space Propulsion and Power Systems at L3Harris. Kristin leads the team responsible for propulsion and space power systems across Artemis and beyond, from the RS-25 main engines to the Gateway’s high-power electric propulsion system to Fission Surface Power (FSP) on the Moon. We dive into how Artemis II is shaping up, the role of SLS, and why nuclear power and propulsion may be the linchpin of America’s long-term space presence. We also discuss: What Artemis II is designed to prove, and why precision on Artemis I mattered so muchHow Artemis ties directly into national security and the new lunar race with ChinaFSP – what it is, why it matters, and why NASA is accelerating it nowNuclear propulsion: hype vs. physics, and how soon it could be operationalWhy maneuverability in space is becoming the next strategic advantageGolden Dome and how propulsion/power innovations fit into the architectureThe propulsion milestone Kristin wants to see in the next 10 years…and much more. Check out this Valley of Depth on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:47 – Kristin's background 03:47 – Why are we going back to the Moon? 07:10 – State of the Artemis program 09:28 – L3Harris's involvement in Artemis 10:48 – What does success look like for Artemis 2? 12:38 – Orbital maneuvers and landing 14:35 – Lessons from Artemis I that's giving confidence into Artemis II 15:45 – Artemis II readiness, risk, and pacing 16:39 – What needs to go right in Artemis II 18:55 – The need for the SLS rocket 19:57 – The criticism of the SLS 22:28 – Could Starship and the SLS coexist? 24:33 – National security ROI for sustained Lunar operations 27:02 – Are we underestimating China? 27:40 – What if China gets to the Moon first? 31:13 – The question about power 34:59 – Minimum power requirements on the Moon 35:45 – Government's renewed focus on nuclear 36:57 – How far away are we from nuclear propulsion? 39:27 – Maneuverability in space 42:20 – Defense focused propulsion systems 42:57 – Golden Dome 46:11 – Propulsion milestones   • Show notes • L3Harris’s website — https://www.l3harris.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Some environments are simply too harsh for traditional power sources. Solar panels fail in darkness, batteries die quickly, and diesel can’t reach. That’s where Zeno Power comes in. The company is pioneering nuclear batteries, compact systems that recycle radioactive waste into safe, reliable power for years at a time. On this episode of Valley of Depth, I’m joined by Tyler Bernstein, co-founder and CEO of Zeno Power. We trace the journey from a Vanderbilt classroom project to a venture-backed company with $70M in private capital, $60M+ in NASA and DoD contracts, and a working nuclear prototype. Tyler shares how Zeno is positioning itself to power critical frontier operations: autonomous systems on the seabed, satellites in orbit, and landers on the Moon. We also discuss: How a nuclear battery works and why Strontium-90 is Zeno’s starting fuelWhat it takes to safely turn nuclear waste into usable powerThe use cases that only nuclear batteries can unlockThe business model: selling units vs. power-as-a-service vs. revenue sharingNavigating the unique regulatory path for radioisotope systemsThe risks of scaling a nuclear startup…and much more. This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com.   • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro & WSBW Ad 01:26 – Tyler's background and how he came to co-found Zeno Power 04:13 – Is it normal for Vanderbilt to support their students' ideas and startups? 05:11 – Key mentors/validators of Tyler's business 07:06 – Zeno's products and $70M fundraising 09:12 – What is a nuclear battery and how does it work? 12:40 – How Zeno is carefully handling Strontium-90 14:39 – Future use cases for Strontium-90 15:53 – Advantages of nuclear battery 18:09 – Energy limits and stacking 19:30 – DoD and commercial customers 21:20 – Future business model 22:52 – How does Tyler think about pricing? 24:31 – How does regulation look for nuclear batteries? 27:00 – Will there be meaningful change coming out of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC)? 29:03 – Competition 31:25 – Turning nuclear waste into valuable power 34:12 – The future of nuclear waste disposal 37:47 – Biggest technical risks Zeno is combating 40:46 – Scaling the Stirling generator 41:49 – Zeno's testing infrastructure 43:08 – What keeps Tyler up at night 47:16 – Is Tyler optimistic about the future of energy in the US? 48:41 – Zeno's legacy in 20 years   • Show notes • Zeno Power’s website — https://www.zenopower.com/ Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com

Continuous human presence in orbit has been a cornerstone of U.S. leadership in space for 25 years. But recent changes to NASA’s Commercial LEO Destinations (CLD) strategy have Pam Melroy—former NASA Deputy Administrator and shuttle commander—sounding the alarm. She warns that shifting to short-duration missions risks ceding leadership in LEO and undermining U.S. readiness for Mars, opening the door for China to take the mantle. On this episode of Valley of Depth, we’re joined by Pam to talk about the state of NASA, the future of space stations, and why requirements, the often overlooked backbone of program management, will determine whether the U.S. stays ahead. We trace her career from test pilot to shuttle commander to senior leadership at NASA, DARPA, and the FAA, and unpack what it means to build an architecture that actually holds together from LEO to Mars. We also discuss: Why continuous presence in LEO is a national security and leadership issueHow the CLD Phase 2 shift could reshape investor and partner confidenceThe role of SpaceX and Starship in the Moon–Mars roadmapWhat it takes to write requirements that don’t doom a program from the startPam’s vision of LEO, the Moon, and Mars in 2045…and much more. This episode is brought to you by World Space Business Week, taking place September 15–19 in Paris. WSBW is one of the leading annual gatherings for the global space industry, bringing together executives, investors, government officials, and innovators from across commercial, defense, and satellite sectors. Learn more at wsbw.com. • Chapters • 00:00 – Intro 00:55 – WSBW Ad 01:21 – The key to Pam's success 03:32 – The state of NASA 05:01 – NASA in the next decade if we stay in our current trajectory 06:58 – Why is maintaining a human presence in LEO so important? 10:18 – The changing CLD Strategy 15:29 – Cost and impact of continuous vs 30-day missions 18:01 – NASA's requirements 23:50 – Disintegration of requirements 27:32 – Impact of the shift in CLD strategy 29:52 – Why go back to the Moon? 31:35 – Does the media understand the impact of landing on the Moon and Mars? 35:19 – Why do 30-day missions make sense 37:53 – Will China beat us back to the Moon? 41:41 – Cultural impact if China beats us to the Moon 45:17 – Does the Artemis program have the right architecture to succeed? 47:46 – Is NASA too dependent on SpaceX? 52:47 – How much should the U.S. be interested 56:02 – What did leading the space shuttle teach Pam about leadership? 57:54 – Inspiring the next generation of space exploration 58:46 – Prediction 20 years later 01:01:37 – Aliens?   • Show notes • Mo's socials — https://twitter.com/itsmoislam Payload’s socials — https://twitter.com/payloadspace / https://www.linkedin.com/company/payloadspace Ignition’s socials — https://twitter.com/ignitionnuclear /  https://www.linkedin.com/company/ignition-nuclear/ Tectonic’s socials  — https://twitter.com/tectonicdefense / https://www.linkedin.com/company/tectonicdefense/ Valley of Depth archive — Listen: https://pod.payloadspace.com/   • About us • Valley of Depth is a podcast about the technologies that matter — and the people building them. Brought to you by Arkaea Media, the team behind Payload (space), Ignition (nuclear energy), and Tectonic (defense tech), this show goes beyond headlines and hype. We talk to founders, investors, government officials, and military leaders shaping the future of national security and deep tech. From breakthrough science to strategic policy, we dive into the high-stakes decisions behind the world’s hardest technologies. Payload: www.payloadspace.comIgnition: www.ignition-news.comTectonic: www.tectonicdefense.com