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In this episode of Messy Social Work, Tim and Rich begin with a conversation about shame, connection, and the ways we "make our own social worlds". Reflecting on Margaret Wheatley's work, they explore how small acts of openness can shape relationships, meetings, and everyday interactions. They are then joined by Jordel Bennett, fatherhood advocate, trainer, family group decision-making facilitator and lived-experience practitioner. Drawing on his experience growing up in London as a Black Caribbean man, becoming a young father, studying law, and supporting fathers navigating child protection and family court processes, Jordel offers a powerful perspective on how fathers experience helping systems. Together they discuss: Why fathers are often treated as an "add-on" rather than a core part of family lifeTrust, risk and why some fathers find it difficult to engage with professionalsThe difference between being child-focused and case-focusedHow social workers can build stronger relationships with fathers and paternal familiesThe role of family networks, identity and belonging in children's livesThe importance of curiosity, humanity and inclusive practiceThe episode concludes with a reading from Rainer Maria Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet, reflecting on fear, sadness and the possibility that what troubles us most may be asking for understanding rather than avoidance. "Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love." A thoughtful conversation about fathers, relationships, participation, and what more inclusive social work might look like.

What is social work really for? In this special episode, Rich and Tim sit down with Dr Beverly Barnett-Jones MBE, one of the most influential voices in British social work, for a conversation that spans personal history, political activism, healing, community, and the future of the profession. Beverly reflects on how her experiences as a child growing up in a kinship arrangement, her identity as a Black British woman of Windrush heritage, and decades of frontline and leadership experience shaped her approach as a social worker, advocate, and what she describes as a "caring disruptor." Together, the conversation explores the work of social work pioneer Bertha Capen Reynolds, whose writing on power, poverty, dignity, and community still feels startlingly relevant today. They discuss social work's relationship with activism, the dangers of dependency narratives, the importance of walking alongside families, and whether social workers should see themselves as witnesses, healers, or agents of social change. Along the way, Beverly speaks candidly about therapy, faith, forgiveness, racial inequality, professional power, and her growing conviction that communities themselves must play a greater role in shaping the systems that affect their children and families. This is a rich, thoughtful conversation about social work's past, present and future, and a reminder that some of the most important work happens not in offices or procedures, but at the crossroads of ordinary life. Topics include: Bertha Capen Reynolds and Social Work and Social LivingSocial work as activism and advocacyRace, identity and the care systemHealing, therapy, faith and forgivenessPower, dependency and professional authorityCo-production and community leadershipWhat it means to truly walk alongside families“You can't be a witness unless you do something.” – Beverly Barnett-Jones

In this special 100th episode of The Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich Devine and Tim Fisher hit pause to reflect on the journey so far. Armed with a list of 100 AI-generated questions inspired by their previous episodes, they take each other on a whistle-stop tour through five years of conversations, debates, learning, and occasional technical disasters. Together they explore what they've learned from speaking with academics, practitioners, people with lived experience, and thought leaders from across and beyond social work. They discuss the limits of concepts such as trauma-informed practice, the importance of professional curiosity, systemic thinking, humility, relationships, and the enduring complexity of child protection work. Along the way, they revisit some of their most memorable guests, reflect on how the podcast has evolved, share what drives each other slightly mad, and wrestle with one of the biggest questions of all: what is social work actually for? Part celebration, part stocktake, and part conversation between two friends who have spent 100 episodes thinking out loud together, this episode offers a candid glimpse behind the scenes of the podcast and the ideas that continue to shape it. Thank you to everyone who has listened, contributed, challenged, shared, and joined us for the journey so far.

In this episode of This Is Messy Social Work, Rich and Tim are joined once again by care-experienced advocate, project worker and Churchill Fellow, Terri-Anne Hamer. Terri-Anne shares insights from her Churchill Fellowship research exploring how we break intergenerational cycles of child removal. From Denmark to Jamaica, her travels challenged assumptions and revealed a surprisingly consistent message: while services matter, what often makes the greatest difference is belonging, community and meaningful relationships. Together, they explore care experience, loneliness, identity, parenting, and the courage required to challenge patterns passed down through generations. Terri-Anne reflects on the role of her own "village" in helping her build a different future for her children, and makes a compelling case for support that extends beyond childhood and into adulthood. Along the way, the conversation touches on relational leadership, the unseen work of relationships, internalised shame, and why breaking cycles is rarely something people achieve alone. A thoughtful, moving and hopeful discussion about what becomes possible when we stop asking, "What's wrong with people?" and start asking, "Who stands alongside them?" Topics discussed: Breaking intergenerational cycles of child removalCare experience and parentingThe Churchill Fellowship journeyRelational practice and relational activismLoneliness, belonging and communityThe importance of "the village"Supporting care-experienced adultsLeadership, systems and creating the conditions for change"If it takes a village to raise a child, why does the village disappear when that child becomes an adult?" - Terri-Anne Hamer

What difference can one consistent relationship make in a young person's life? In this moving and deeply honest episode, Rich and Tim are joined by care leaver Shakira Peart and her Personal Advisor Sarah Fisher. Together, they reflect on a seven-year relationship that has endured through trauma, loss, domestic abuse, homelessness, mental health challenges, parenting struggles, and ultimately, remarkable personal growth. Shakira speaks candidly about losing her mum at 14, living with undiagnosed autism, ADHD and bipolar disorder, surviving abusive relationships, and the painful experience of having her first two children removed from her care. She also shares how becoming a mother to her daughter Aurora, who has significant additional needs, has helped her make sense of her own experiences and find new strength and purpose. At the heart of the conversation is Sarah's unwavering presence. This episode shines a light on the vital role Personal Advisors play in the lives of care-experienced young people: offering consistency, hope, practical support, and a relationship that doesn't disappear when life gets messy. As Shakira prepares to graduate with a first-class Psychology degree, accompanied by the Personal Advisor she affectionately calls her "second mum", this is a powerful story about resilience, recovery, and the transformative impact of someone refusing to give up on you. Content note: This episode contains discussions about bereavement, domestic abuse, mental health difficulties, self-harm, trauma, and child removal.

In this episode, Richard Devine sits down with family law barrister Gemma Chapman to explore the intersection between social work, family justice and advocacy. Gemma shares her journey into family law, what she enjoys most about being a barrister, and some of the challenges that come with working in a complex and emotionally demanding field. Together, we discuss what makes an effective social worker, the qualities of a strong social work expert witness, and the common pitfalls practitioners can encounter when giving evidence in court. The conversation also examines an important distinction often misunderstood in practice: the difference between disclosure and allegations, and why this matters for assessment, decision-making and safeguarding children. We explore the role of legal representation within the family justice system, including how barristers advocate for clients while balancing professional duties and ethical responsibilities. Finally, Gemma reflects on the changes she would like to see in how services support children and families and offers valuable advice for social workers appearing in court. A thought-provoking conversation for social workers, managers, legal professionals, students, and anyone interested in improving outcomes for children and families. Key themes: Family justice and advocacyGiving evidence in courtWhat makes an effective social workerSocial Work Expert Witnesses (SWETs)Disclosure versus allegationsWorking alongside legal professionalsSupporting children and familiesLearning from practice and experienceGuest: Gemma Chapman, Family Law Barrister

In the second part of their Family Group Decision Making (FGDM) series, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore themes six to ten, moving beyond process and practice into the relational, cultural and leadership dimensions of family-led decision-making.  The conversation explores: The relational skills and mindsets that underpin effective FGDM, including invitational practice, holding space, emotional containment, cultural humility and creating environments where families experience dignity, belonging and psychological safety. The power of networks and participation, examining how practitioners can move beyond a narrow definition of family to mobilise wider circles of support, including kinship networks, friends, neighbours, communities, fathers and lifelong connections.The role of stories, feedback and lived experience in helping us understand the impact of FGDM, and why stories often reveal aspects of change, identity and belonging that formal outcomes alone cannot capture.Theoretical perspectives that inform family-led practice, including restorative approaches, shame and repair, systems thinking, risk culture, relational activism and the challenge of balancing professional responsibility with trust in families and communities.Leadership, implementation and culture change, exploring how services can embed FGDM principles beyond individual meetings, create democratic and participatory spaces, involve people with lived experience, and build systems that place relationships, community and shared responsibility at the centre of practice. Throughout the episode, Rich and Tim reflect on power, participation, relational ethics, community leadership and what happens when professionals move from being experts and problem-solvers towards becoming facilitators of conversation, connection and collective action.  Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, coordinator, manager, therapist, community organiser or leader, this episode offers practical ideas and thoughtful reflections on building more relational, democratic and human-centred ways of working with children, families and communities.

In this episode, Richard Devine and Tim Fisher explore the first five themes of Family Group Decision Making (FGDM), unpacking the philosophy, values and practice wisdom behind one of the most significant relational approaches in children's and family services today. Together, they discuss the Māori origins of Family Group Conferencing in Aotearoa New Zealand and how FGDM has evolved into a strengths-based, family-led approach that places decision-making power closer to children, families and communities. The conversation explores: The foundations of FGDM and the shift from doing things to or for families towards doing things with them. How Family Group Decision Making can support people across the life course, from birth planning and early years support to adolescence, adulthood and later life. The importance of the "window of intervention" and why timing matters when creating opportunities for families to lead their own planning and decision-making. The art and craft of facilitation, including preparation, advocacy, private family time, powerful questioning and the role of the coordinator in creating the conditions for meaningful participation. A continuum of conversational approaches, from formal Family Group Conferences through to mediation, family network meetings and other family-led spaces for dialogue, planning and repair. Throughout the episode, Richard and Tim reflect on participatory democracy, relational practice, family power, professional humility and what becomes possible when we trust families and communities to mobilise their own strengths, networks and solutions. Whether you are a social worker, family help practitioner, manager, coordinator, therapist or community practitioner, this episode offers rich insights into how relational ways of working can create lasting change through conversation, connection and collective responsibility.

Flawless Consulting by Peter Block has sold more than a million copies and is widely regarded as one of the most influential books ever written about consulting. But what can a business classic teach social workers, practice leads, and change agents working in complex public services? In this episode, Rich and Tim put Peter Block's ideas to the test through two live consulting dilemmas drawn from their own work. Rich explores the challenge of leading a systemic practice transformation from within an organisation, where success depends less on training and more on culture change, relationships, and influencing without authority. Tim brings the perspective of an external consultant, working with local authorities to embed Family Group Decision-Making and create lasting change beyond the life of a contract. Together, they explore some of Peter's most enduring ideas: authentic contracting, resistance as valuable information, shared responsibility, and the difference between compliance and genuine commitment. Along the way, Peter challenges assumptions about expertise, accountability, and what it really takes to help organisations change. Whether you're an internal practice lead, an external consultant, a social work manager, or anyone trying to influence change without formal authority, this conversation offers practical wisdom from a thinker whose work remains as relevant today as when Flawless Consulting was first published. Topics include: Contracting for real accountabilityLeading change without direct authorityWorking with resistance rather than against itInternal versus external consultingAvoiding the "expert" trapMoving from compliance to commitmentEmbedding systemic practice and Family Group Decision-MakingA conversation about consulting, culture change, and why one of the world's best-selling consulting books still has so much to say about social work.

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Relational Activism: https://www.relationalactivism.com/ Rich's BASW Child Protection sessions: https://basw.co.uk/social-work-child-protection-professional-practice-programme Rich Devine's blog: https://richarddevinesocialwork.com/about/ Tim Fisher LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/timfisher101/

Why do experienced professionals sometimes fail to see what is right in front of them? In this episode of Connecting Research, we explore Margaret Rustin's influential analysis of the Victoria Climbié case and her argument that professional failures in child protection are not simply the result of poor practice, incompetence, or inadequate procedures. Instead, they can reflect powerful psychological and organizational defenses against unbearable emotional realities. Drawing on psychoanalytic concepts including turning a blind eye, avoidance of mental pain, splitting, and mindlessness, we examine how exposure to child suffering can overwhelm practitioners' capacity to think, reflect, and act. Rustin invites us to consider how social workers, health professionals, police officers, and organizations can become caught in defensive processes that obscure the meaning of what they are seeing, even when the evidence of harm is available. The discussion explores what happens when thinking itself becomes painful, why anxiety can interfere with professional judgement, and how supervision, reflective spaces, and systemic support are essential if practitioners are to remain emotionally present with children who are suffering. Rather than locating blame solely in individuals, this episode asks how child protection systems can help workers bear the difficult realities of abuse, neglect, and trauma without turning away from them. A thought-provoking conversation about the emotional demands of child protection and what it takes to keep children in mind when the realities they face are hardest to bear.

In this episode of the Messy Social Work Podcast, Rich and Tim discuss Richard's recent blog, 14 Lessons from 11 Years at Bath and North East Somerset Council, written as he prepares to leave frontline children's social work after more than a decade in B&NES and take up a leadership role in Solihull. Together, they explore fourteen reflections shaped by years of child protection practice, relationships with children and families, mistakes, uncertainty, and the ongoing challenge of working in complex systems. The conversation covers the limits of professional influence, learning to live with impossible demands, reducing harm rather than pursuing perfect safety, and why social workers themselves help create the system they often talk about. Rich and Tim also discuss authenticity with families, balancing compassion and accountability, the value of curiosity and "not knowing", the tensions at the heart of child protection work, and why meaningful change is often rooted in relationships rather than professional heroics. This is a thoughtful and honest conversation about what social work teaches us over time: how to tolerate uncertainty, stay connected to people, and hold onto what matters most when there are no easy answers.

In this episode, we’re joined by former undercover drugs officer Neil Woods to explore the ideas at the heart of his book Good Cop, Bad War. Drawing on over a decade working covertly inside drug markets, Neil gives a sobering account of how the “war on drugs” actually plays out on the ground - and why, in his view, it so often makes things worse rather than better. Neil talks about what he witnessed firsthand: the way enforcement can unintentionally strengthen organised crime, increase violence, and pull vulnerable people - especially children and young people - deeper into exploitation. He reflects on the disconnect between policy intentions and real-world impact, and how the system can end up targeting those with the least power while leaving wider harms untouched. We also explore the personal toll of this work. Neil shares his experiences of moral injury - the strain of repeatedly acting in ways that conflict with your sense of what is right - and his experience of complex PTSD. Turning to social work, we think about what all of this means for those supporting parents who use drugs. Rather than seeing substance use purely as a problem to be eradicated, this conversation invites a more reflective approach - one that understands the role drugs play in people’s lives, recognises the impact of trauma, and prioritises relationship-based, harm-reducing practice. This is an honest and thought-provoking discussion about policy, practice, and the unintended consequences of intervention - and a challenge to think differently about what helpful support really looks like for families. Contact Neil here:  https://www.neilwoods.net/contact-neil-woods https://www.neilwoods.net/ His book is available online and on audible