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In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat Gomendio, former Deputy Director for Education at the OECD, to discuss the newly released PISA 2025 results. They explore why student achievement is falling in many countries.  They discuss whether COVID, smartphones, and AI explain the declines, why some education systems are holding up better than others, and what policymakers can learn from countries that are seeing better results.  They also answer questions from listeners that were submitted during a livestream version of the episode. Chalk & Talk website:  www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] - Introduction: PISA 2025 and student achievement [00:05:41] - Why did reading become the dominant PISA story? [00:08:23] - Do phones, digital technology, and AI explain the decline? [00:14:54] - Did COVID and school closures cause the decline? [00:20:58] - What can England teach us about education policy after COVID? [00:22:14] – Scores started declining before COVID [00:27:35] - What do top-performing education systems have in common?[00:34:32] - What makes effective teacher training? [00:39:59] - How can countries improve teacher quality in the short term?[00:45:24] - Why evidence-based professional development matters [00:48:10] - What can countries learn from England’s approach to math? [00:51:22] - What should teachers do when they disagree with their training?[00:56:10] – How to encourage teachers to change [00:59:14] - How should schools design a knowledge-rich curriculum? [01:03:35] - What makes an effective math curriculum? [01:06:44] - Does PISA data hide differences between education systems?[01:10:41] - What does the OECD get wrong about interpreting PISA data? [01:16:14] – Finland: PISA declines and bad advice about following Finland [01:21:54] - Final thoughts EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-81/ RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES (linking to website) The Story Behind Mississippi’s Education Turnaround with Rachel Cante https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-76/ The Finland myth, East Asia’s rise, and what makes education systems work with Montserrat Gomendio https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-68/   When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-58/   From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-49/   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: http://www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com/ FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by two elementary school teachers from California who are appearing anonymously so they can speak candidly about their experiences. Both teach at a school where math achievement has remained consistently low. After watching many of their students struggle with the curriculum they were expected to use (Illustrative Math), they began exploring research, learning about the science of learning and evidence-informed teaching practices, and rethinking what they had been taught about how children learn math.  They changed the way they taught math and the results were remarkable. Their students began the year below the national average in math and finished well above it.   This inspiring conversation explores what happens when teachers refuse to accept poor outcomes and take the initiative to find better ways to help their students succeed. Max and Todd are also interested in hearing your thoughts and questions.    Submit feedback and questions about this episode here: https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-80/   Sept. 29, 11:00 AM CST Livestream for Making Sense of PISA 2025: Live with Montserrat Gomendio):  https://www.youtube.com/live/g_VTy4q55zo?si=9CWypiuqR1GyHIWc Chalk & Talk website:  www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] Introduction [00:04:03] Remarkable math gains in a struggling school [00:07:05] What they learned in teacher education about math instruction [00:14:49] A school facing years of poor math outcomes [00:17:54] When classroom reality didn’t match what was being taught [00:23:43] Illustrative Math and issues with problem-based instruction [00:33:50] A close look at an Illustrative Math lesson [00:43:14] Recognizing the teaching approach didn’t work [00:46:35] How they transformed their math instruction [00:54:28] What explicit instruction looks like in the classroom [00:58:52] Creating more opportunities for students to respond [01:01:54] How administrators responded to the results [01:06:11] Evidence-informed teaching has a huge impact [01:11:38] Advice for teachers [01:15:03] When a teacher’s work feels hopeless EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://chalkandtalkpodcast.com/episode/ep-80/   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Cognitive load theory and learning math with John Sweller  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-s2zyd-1a717d6   Teaching math so students learn with Craig Barton https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vr69j-1a277a2   Using the Instructional Hierarchy to teach math with Brendan Lee https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3zux7-193d0fc   Transforming education through behaviour science with Dr. Kimberly Berens https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9tfz7-16f2e02   The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d   Math & the Myth of Ability with John Mighton https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-22c7a-139dc72 MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: http://www.chalkandtalkpodcast.com/ FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by returning guest Dr. Brian Poncy to discuss math fact fluency and whether improving students’ fluency with basic number operations leads to better overall math achievement. Brian shares new results from the first year of a large implementation of the free Facts on Fire program in a Texas school district. They discuss what the data shows, how the program has evolved based on teacher feedback, and what educators are saying about it. They also revisit five evidence-based reasons why fluency—being able to do math both accurately and effortlessly—matters. With a new school year underway, this episode offers practical and encouraging ideas for helping students build automaticity with math facts through clear instruction, practice, and feedback. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke TIMESTAMPS [00:00:04] Introduction [00:04:25] What’s changed with Facts on Fire? [00:08:15] Measuring fluency in problems per minute [00:14:47] How Facts on Fire builds fluency through practice and feedback [00:17:29] How much practice do students need? [00:20:11] Facts on Fire goes school-wide in Texas [00:23:22] Teachers’ experiences implementing Facts on Fire [00:24:56] Did Facts on Fire improve math achievement? [00:30:10] What the MAP data reveals [00:34:40] The impact of Facts on Fire and the results [00:42:40] Five reasons why fluency matters [00:43:01] Cognitive load and working memory [00:46:15] Increasing opportunities to respond [00:47:31] Effort, reinforcement, and building confidence [00:49:23] Maintaining skills and promoting generalization [00:52:14] Recapping the five reasons fluency matters [00:54:26] The future of Facts on Fire [00:56:19] A call to action for the new school year [00:57:58] Final thoughts EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-79-resources EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-79-transcript   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES Math fact crisis: Strategies for improving numeracy with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-u9y84-165d773 Math Fluency matters with Brian Poncy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pj6z6-166741e How to Build Automaticity with Math Facts: A Practical Guide  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9 Rocking the Times Tables with Bruno Reddy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-2pbdy-18f76df  MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by returning guests Dr. Nidhi Sachdeva and Dr. Paul Kirschner, authors of the upcoming book Becoming an Expert Teacher: Deliberate Practice for Effective Teaching. They explore what makes an expert teacher and how teaching expertise can be deliberately developed. They discuss the importance of deep subject knowledge, mental models, deliberate practice, and reflection, while explaining the difference between the science and the craft of teaching. They also examine how teaching expertise can be measured and why striving to become an expert teacher is both a professional responsibility and an equity issue. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:26] What makes an expert teacher? [00:12:09] Why teacher content knowledge matters [00:13:24] Why content knowledge isn’t enough [00:16:00] Schemas & pattern recognition explained [00:18:04] How expert teachers think [00:22:55] Deliberate practice to develop teaching expertise [00:30:31] The challenge and importance of deliberate practice [00:38:31] The importance of reflection in teaching [00:40:51] The science and craft of teaching [00:47:57] A reflection on teacher education preparedness [00:55:21] Can teaching expertise be measured ?[00:01:07] The responsibility to become an expert teacher [01:11:40] Final thoughts RESOURCES Becoming an Expert Teacher: Deliberate Practice for Effective Teaching https://www.routledge.com/Becoming-an-Expert-Teacher-Deliberate-Practice-for-Effective-Teaching/SachdevaKirschner/p/book/9781041107453 Code to get 20% off: 26AFLY2 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-78-transcript RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES We know more about teaching than ever ¬– so why is change so slow? With Joanna Barbousas https://chalkandtalkpodcast.podbean.com/e/we-know-more-about-teaching-than-ever––so-why-is-change-so-slow-with-joanna-barbousas-ep-69/ Rebuilding teacher training through cognitive science with Jonas Linderoth https://chalkandtalkpodcast.podbean.com/e/rebuilding-teacher-training-through-cognitive-science-with-jonas-linderoth-ep-60/ How we learn: Naive, purposeful, and deliberate practice with Stephen Chew https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-mrwn2-18adce0 How advocacy is changing reading instruction with Jamie Metsala https://chalkandtalkpodcast.podbean.com/e/how-advocacy-is-changing-reading-instruction-with-jamie-metsala/ Exploring evidence for equitable education with Nidhi Sachdeva and Jim Hewitt https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-fjdnt-1685615 Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow https://chalkandtalkpodcast.podbean.com/e/using-evidence-in-education-with-pamela-snow-ep-27/ MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band - ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this solo episode, Anna Stokke explores five common misconceptions in math education that may sound convincing but aren't supported by high-quality evidence. This episode is based on a chapter she wrote for The Practice Project, which is a joint initiative of the American Enterprise Institute and researchED, dedicated to improving classroom practice through research-informed professional knowledge.   She tackles five common misconceptions about math instruction:  teaching multiple strategies to new learners, relying on technology instead of learning facts and procedures, believing that conceptual understanding must precede procedures, using problem solving as the primary method of instruction, and thinking that practice turns kids off math. She concludes the episode by discussing evidence-based approaches that better support student success in mathematics. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke The Practice Project article can be read here: https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/five-math-education-misconceptions-that-are-holding-students-back/   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:00] Introduction [00:02:16] Myth #1: New learners should learn multiple math strategies [00:05:41] What to do instead [00:06:04] Myth #2: Technology makes facts and procedures unnecessary [00:09:31] Myth #3: Conceptual understanding must come before procedural skill [00:13:50] Myth #4: Problem solving is the best way to teach mathematics [00:15:09] The instructional hierarchy guides instructional methods [00:16:29] Myth #5: Practice turns kids off math [00:18:41] What the evidence says about effective math instruction [00:20:06] Final thoughts: takeaways for teachers and parents   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Cognitive load theory and learning math with John Sweller https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-s2zyd-1a717d6 Rosenshine's Principles of Instruction with Tom Sherrington https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-hmh6w-1a3a5b0 Techniques for Building Fluency with Math Facts https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9 Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56 Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56   EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-77-resources   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-77-transcript   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke is joined by Rachel Canter, Director of Education Policy for the Reinventing America's Schools Project and author of the report Inside the Mississippi Marathon. They explore how Mississippi transformed from one of the lowest-performing states in fourth grade reading and math to one of the highest-performing in the U.S., despite Mississippi being one of the poorest states. They discuss the policies behind the turnaround, including growth-based accountability, early literacy initiatives, higher expectations for students, evidence-based instruction, and being transparent with parents.  They also discuss how Mississippi improved education outcomes for some of the most marginalized students and what other jurisdictions can take away from Mississippi’s success.  This episode is a must listen for educators, school leaders, policymakers, parents, and anyone interested in learning how sustained, evidence-based reform can improve student outcomes.   This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:51] Mississippi’s education system in the 90s [00:10:57] Holding underperforming schools accountable [00:14:25] Transforming accountability through A–F school grades [00:20:16] The Literacy-Based Promotion Act and the Science of Reading [00:28:07] Being honest with parents about student performance [00:32:09] Third-grade retention: The controversy and the impact [00:39:44] The three Ps of reform: Policy, People, and Persistence [00:41:33] Mississippi's gains in reading and math [00:49:41] Why accountability is difficult but important [00:52:24] The political will behind Mississippi's turnaround [00:55:39] Can other places replicate Mississippi's success? [00:58:26] Final thoughts RESOURCES Inside the Mississippi Marathon by Rachel Canter: https://www.progressivepolicy.org/inside-the-mississippi-marathon/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-76-transcript   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  The Finland myth, East Asia’s rise, & what makes education systems work with Montse Gomendio https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7k52u-1a8a731 From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97 Reading and math: parallels and pitfalls with Matthew Burns https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-8aj3f-1508af6 The Science of Math with Amanda VanDerHeyden https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bksbz-13c732d MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke is joined by Doug Lemov, author of Teach Like a Champion and one of the most influential voices on effective teaching practice. They discuss educational equity and why strong teaching, clear behaviour routines, high expectations, and academic rigor are essential for helping every student succeed. They also discuss practical classroom strategies, including how to use cold calling effectively, active observation in math class, and building a culture where students are engaged and accountable for learning. Teachers, school leaders, and anyone interested in evidence-based education will find practical, actionable insights in this conversation. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:06] Teach Like a Champion – is it about social justice? [00:05:36] Why some stress is essential for learning [00:10:38] School culture and how students respond – Asha’s story [00:16:28] How can you change school culture? [00:23:01] Why behaviour expectations are important [00:30:28] Why it’s important to be upfront about classroom policies [00:37:25] Teaching Techniques: Active Observation [00:45:36] Teaching Techniques: Cold Calling [00:53:06] The false positives of volunteer responses [00:58:36] Why having a mental model of how learning happens is critical for teachers [01:03:48] Final thoughts RESOURCES Teach like a Champion: https://teachlikeachampion.org/ Basketball leadership Teacher article https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/7167858/2026/04/03/dusty-may-michigan-basketball-leadership-teacher/   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-75-transcript   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Inside one of England’s top-performing non-selective schools with Robert Peal https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-p7uyp-1ad62d6   The case for practice and the power of Math Corps with Alex Kontorovich  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d8bef-1916f6d   Educational leadership: Improving math and literacy with Scott Hill https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vpzf8-16d0c17   Stress and learning with Dan Rosen https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-94vv4-147a254   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this special two-part Chalk & Talk mailbag series, Anna Stokke is joined by Jonathan Regino, Pre-K–12 Supervisor of Math at Interboro School District, to answer questions submitted by listeners. In Part 2, Anna and Jonathan tackle topics such as calculators in IEPs, math fact fluency, teacher content knowledge, the importance of mastering fractions, the role of NCTM in math education, and what evidence-informed math instruction looks like in classrooms. Drawing on their extensive experience in mathematics education, they provide practical, research-informed insights for teachers, school leaders, and parents.   This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke Olivier Chabot’s Notebook LM: https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/c97a098a-7c1f-4e80-aa02-0ff73164b8e8?addSource=true&pli=1   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:02:42] Is too much content contributing to lack of math mastery? [00:07:11] Prioritizing critical math content [00:09:13] Common Core and issues with focussing on multiple strategies [00:14:47] Questions about standard algorithms [00:18:19] The role of NCTM [00:26:11] Helping teachers improve math content knowledge [00:33:23] What to focus on after math facts [00:41:38] Myths about math facts and neuroscience [00:44:17] Do calculators help with students who have IEPs? [00:50:36] Final thoughts RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-74-resources EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-74-transcript   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Science of Math: The movement everyone's talking about with Sarah Powell (65) https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gar68-1a4c913   The power of explicit instruction with Anita Archer  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-93dcw-19a3530 Ep 54. Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math? with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107   How to Build Automaticity with Math Facts: A Practical Guide (solo episode)  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-3ny3k-17323a9 Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this special two-part Chalk & Talk mailbag episode, Anna Stokke is joined by Jonathan Regino, Pre-K–12 Supervisor of Math at Interboro School District, to answer questions submitted by listeners. Together, they answer questions from teachers and parents about math resources, explicit instruction, teaching mixed ability classes, supporting advanced learners, and more. Drawing on their experience in mathematics education, Anna and Jonathan share practical, evidence-informed insights for teachers and school leaders looking to improve student outcomes. This is Part 1 of a two-part listener Q&A special. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke Virtual assistant to help you get answers from past Chalk & Talk episodes: https://notebooklm.google.com/notebook/c97a098a-7c1f-4e80-aa02-0ff73164b8e8   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:35] Saxon Math and Singapore Math [00:09:59] Recommended books for math teachers [00:13:28] Difference between Direct Instruction and direct instruction [00:16:10] Resources for preparing students for algebra [00:18:10] Tips for introducing evidenced-based instruction to colleagues [00:26:27] Teaching mixed ability classes [00:28:39] Teaching advanced students [00:31:14] Resources for advanced students [00:33:42] Ability grouping and mixed ability classrooms [00:36:05] Flexible ability grouping [00:39:32] Final thoughts RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-73-resources EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-73-transcript RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  What to do when “Research Shows” shuts you down: A guide for parents and teachers https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9t822-1ab0f70 Teaching math so students learn with Craig Barton https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-vr69j-1a277a2 Math Academy: Optimizing student learning with Alex Smith and Justin Skycak https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jawpr-181e0c3 Project Follow Through: Direct Instruction's overlooked success with Marcy Stein https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-a9fqx-17a2ffb Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1 Math Teaching Tips with Barry Garelick and JR Wilson https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-97efn-13f9a35   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke is joined by Robert Peal, joint head teacher of West London Free School, one of England’s highest-performing non-selective schools.  Robert is also the author of Progressively Worse and co-author, with Nick Gibb, of Reforming Lessons:  Why English Schools Have Improved Since 2010 and How This Was Achieved. Anna visited West London Free School recently and invited Robert to join the podcast to share what makes the school so successful. They discuss the school’s approach to behaviour, school culture, high expectations, and a knowledge-rich curriculum.  They also talk about England’s school reforms and why ineffective educational fads have continued to resurface throughout history, despite weak evidence. Teachers, school leaders, and policymakers will find practical insights on how structure, high expectations, a knowledge-based curriculum, and effective teaching are the keys to improving student outcomes. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:37] Inside West London Free School [00:07:21] Why Free Schools were established in England [00:12:33] Establishing behaviour expectations [00:17:04] House points and celebrating achievements [00:18:07] School sanctions [00:21:06] Silent corridors, and their role in the West London Free School [00:25:33] Parents’ response [00:29:10] Breakdown of the ‘House System’ [00:36:59] A knowledge-rich curriculum in practice [00:41:28] Training teachers on best teaching practices [00:46:35] Grouping students based on readiness [00:50:23] Formative assessments and summative assessments [00:54:53] Is socioeconomic background a good excuse for poor outcomes? [01:00:07] Final advice   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97 The Finland myth, East Asia’s rise, and what makes education systems work with Montserrat Gomendio https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7k52u-1a8a731 Rocking the times tables with Bruno Reddy https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-2pbdy-18f76df Education myth busting with Daisy Christodoulou https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-z2q9q-14ce080 EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-72-transcript MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke continues the conversation from the previous episode on what happens when requests for evidence are dismissed with the phrase “research shows.” She is joined by Thomas Briggs and David Shuck from the Center for Educational Progress to explore why ineffective or unsupported practices persist in education. Thomas and David introduce an important distinction between misunderstanding and conviction: sometimes educators genuinely believe they are following best practices, while other times evidence is ignored or dismissed due to ideology.  They discuss examples including flawed advanced math placement decisions, an update on the New York math briefs controversy, concerns around programs like YouCubed, and the impact of San Francisco’s math de-tracking experiment. The conversation examines how “research shows” can be used both in good faith and as a way to shut down debate, while offering listeners practical ways to think critically about evidence and education policy. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke Anna Stokke was recently a guest writer for the Center for Educational Progress.  That article is available at https://www.educationprogress.org/p/what-to-do-when-research-shows-shuts   TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:16] What is the Center for Educational Progress? [00:05:10] Two reasons ineffective educational practices persist [00:07:57] Examples of misunderstandings [00:09:11] Students being denied access to advanced math [00:16:14] Is conviction one of the biggest barriers to evidence-based education? [00:18:56] The controversy around the New York Math Briefs [00:21:43] NYSED response to Ben Solomon’s petition [00:25:27] Why did the NYSED’s response shift to political motivation? [00:27:41] The response from the New York Math Briefs expert [00:33:24] YouCubed’s education claims and flawed methodology [00:38:21] YouCubed’s updates and more underlying issues [00:44:23] San Francisco’s failed de-tracking experiment [00:51:57] Why tracking and ability grouping helps students [00:58:52] Final piece of advice for parents and teachers RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  What to do when “Research Shows” shuts you down: A guide for parents and teachers https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-9t822-1ab0f70   Balanced literacy didn’t work­––Will balanced math? with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107   Science of Math: The movement everyone’s talking about with Sarah Powell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gar68-1a4c913   Identifying and educating advanced students with Jonathan Plucker https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-y6cxs-16ad6f1   Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a   California's math controversy with Jelani Nelson Part I https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-d3bai-144ec76   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-71-transcript MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna Stokke explores what to do when a math program or education initiative doesn’t seem to work, but you’re told "research shows" that it does. Drawing on her personal experience as both a parent and educator navigating “research shows” claims, Anna explains how parents, teachers, and advocates can ask for evidence, evaluate what counts as credible research, and respond when weak claims are presented with confidence.  This episode is based on a presentation she gave at researchED Toronto in 2025. Anna unpacks common tactics used to shut these conversations down, including shifting the burden of proof, overwhelming people with endless references, credential deflection, and denying that poor practice exists at all.  She also offers practical advice for parents and educators on how to counter these tactics and spot and stop the spread of bad ideas in education. This is an essential conversation for anyone trying to push for better practice in schools and navigate resistance along the way. This episode is available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke A Substack version of this episode, written by Anna Stokke, as a guest writer for the Center for Educational Progress is available at https://www.educationprogress.org/p/what-to-do-when-research-shows-shuts TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:01:35] What to do when something doesn’t feel right [00:02:48] Why Anna got involved in math education advocacy [00:06:38] Understanding the phrase “Research shows” in education [00:07:01] The Wildfire Effect: How bad ideas spread [00:09:25] How to ask for evidence [00:09:57] Burden of proof fallacy [00:11:04] Firehose Effect: Overwhelming you with articles [00:12:16] Overcoming the Firehose Effect [00:13:01] Credential deflection [00:14:59] Gaslighting: When you’re told the problem doesn’t exist [00:16:11] Evaluating the evidence [00:17:50] Fuzzy terms: Critical thinking, conceptual understanding, number sense, curiosity, differentiation [00:19:26] Become informed [00:18:36] Resources that can help [00:20:16] Final thoughts RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Red flags in education research with Ben Solomon https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-cp5xt-156072c Mailbag: Building Thinking Classrooms, number talks & more with Zach Groshell https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-stw9g-186807f Modern relevance in the math curriculum with Brian Conrad https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-gek66-148967a RELEVANT RESOURCES The Institute of Education Sciences Practice Guide https://ies.ed.gov/ncee/wwc/practiceguides The National Mathematics Advisory Panel Final Report https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/ED500486.pdf Education Endowment Foundation https://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/ The National Center on Intensive Intervention https://intensiveintervention.org/ EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-70-transcript MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Professor Joanna Barbousas, Pro Vice-Chancellor of Education, Impact and Innovation, and Dean of the School of Education at La Trobe University in Australia. Early in her career, Joanna noticed that many capable students struggled to access the curriculum due to gaps in foundational reading and language skills—an insight that has shaped her work ever since. Now, she is focused on transforming teacher education to better prepare educators using evidence-based practices. Joanna shares how she led major changes at La Trobe University–redesigning programs to align with the science of learning and launching initiatives like the Science of Language and Reading Lab and the Science of Math Education Lab. Anna and Joanna also explore why change is so difficult in universities and what it takes to lead meaningful reform. This is a compelling conversation for anyone interested in improving education and translating research into practice. This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke SHORT COURSE  La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144 TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:05:19] How Joanna’s early teaching shaped her leadership initiatives [00:06:51] How Joanna went from classroom teacher to Dean [00:10:31] The education landscape in Australia [00:15:38] Unpacking the Rowe report [00:19:23] The importance of teacher education reviews in Australian [00:24:51] The outcomes of the TEEP review  [00:30:08] Becoming the Dean of Education at La Trobe University [00:35:25] Reaction from faculty members [00:43:34] SOLAR Lab – How was it established? [00:49:17] Explaining the successful Nexus program [00:53:38] What Joanna learned about retaining teachers in hard-to-staff schools [00:55:17] Ideas for a national model [00:57:42] Why change matters: A message to leaders [01:00:26] Conclusion   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Rebuilding teacher training through cognitive science with Jonas Linderoth https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zwqb7-19e0dae Reclaiming learning time to boost literacy and numeracy with Ross Fox https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-bpy4n-188c9c5 Using evidence in education with Pamela Snow https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-jc9mq-161ecac EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-69-transcript EPISODE RESOURCES https://www.annastokke.com/resources/ep-69-resources   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. Montserrat (Montse) Gomendio, a former Secretary of State for Education in Spain.  Montse is also a former Deputy Director of Education for the OECD, the international organization that administers the PISA test. Drawing on global data, including from PISA, Montse explains why some education systems consistently perform well while others struggle to improve. Montse discusses the three key drivers of effective education systems:  teacher quality, a knowledge-rich curriculum, and strong assessments aligned with that curriculum.  Anna and Montse discuss what large-scale international assessments like PISA can (and can’t) tell us. The conversation also explores why education reform is so difficult to implement, what high-performing systems right like those in East Asia and Estonia get right, and whether Finland’s reputation as a model system is supported by evidence. This is a fascinating conversation that will appeal to educators, policymakers, and anyone interested in what actually drives improvement in education systems. This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke MONTSERRAT GOMENDIO’S BOOK (OPEN ACCESS) Dire Straits-Education Reforms: Ideology, Vested Interests and Evidence: https://www.openbookpublishers.com/books/10.11647/obp.0332 SHORT COURSE  La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching ResearchED Calgary ResearchED Calgary registration: https://www.eventbrite.ca/e/researched-calgary-tickets-1984343272144 TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:04:55] The role of Deputy Director of Education at the OCED [00:06:21] What is the purpose of PISA? [00:07:29] How is PISA different from TIMSS or PIRLS? [00:12:54] What is an appropriate definition of equity? [00:15:06] Measures that improve educational equity [00:19:57] The perplexing narrative about Finland as a top performer [00:28:42] Why do East Asian countries perform so well? [00:33:00] The importance of content knowledge [00:36:06] Misleading recommendations from the OECD [00:37:16] After-school tutoring in East Asian countries [00:41:36] Why implementation in different countries can be difficult: Latin America [00:46:18] Reducing class size: popular and expensive, but ineffective [00:48:08] What makes an effective teacher? [00:52:01] A look at Estonia’s education system [00:54:14] Why is it so hard to implement reforms even when they are evidence-based? [01:02:23] Preventing the reversal of good education policies [01:06:31] What are the main components that make an effective education system? RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  When a mathematician became education minister: Nuno Crato on transforming education https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-pxzyk-19b773f Balanced literacy didn’t work—will balanced math? https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-usvqw-1962107 From decline to top rankings: How England transformed education with Nick Gibb https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zps9p-18c1e97 Understanding math reform ideology with Tom Loveless  https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-7ih4c-15dbf9a   EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-68-transcript   MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social

In this episode, Anna is joined by Dr. John Sweller, emeritus professor at the University of New South Wales and the researcher best known for developing Cognitive Load Theory. Together, they explore how cognitive load theory should guide classroom practice, particularly in mathematics. John explains the limits of working memory, how experts and novices approach problem solving differently, and how strategies like worked examples can help manage cognitive load. They also discuss whether productive failure is supported by research and the strong experimental evidence supporting explicit instruction, particularly when students are learning new content. This episode will be extremely valuable for educators, especially math teachers, who want to better understand how students become expert problem solvers and what that means for effective instruction. This episode is also available in video at www.youtube.com/@chalktalk-stokke SHORT COURSE  La Trobe Short Course:  Evidence-informed Mathematics Teaching – An Introduction https://shortcourses.latrobe.edu.au/evidence-informed-mathematics-teaching TIMESTAMPS [00:00:22] Introduction [00:03:53] Biologically primary and biologically secondary knowledge [00:09:34] Element Interactivity [00:15:37] Two characteristics of working memory [00:16:52] Understanding long-term memory [00:21:06] Does working memory capacity vary for different people? [00:21:44] Can working memory capacity be altered? [00:22:45] How can you measure working memory? [00:23:49] Explaining cognitive load theory [00:27:55] Can you measure cognitive load? [00:31:51] Sweller’s definition of problem solving [00:37:28] Understanding schemas [00:44:26] The way novices and experts categorize problems differently [00:46:11] The expertise reversal effect [00:50:13] How to identify students are ready for problem solving [00:52:12] Thoughts on productive failure [00:55:40] Why is there still debate about prioritizing inquiry-based approaches in math instruction?   RELEVANT PREVIOUS EPISODES  Evidence-based teaching strategies with Paul Kirschner https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-zgw6i-13b33df Cognitive load theory with Greg Ashman https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-thbad-13cea56 Cognitive load theory in math class with David Morkunas https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-znh5k-15f7937 Unmasking instructional illusions with Paul Kirschner, Carl Hendrick and Jim Heal https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-kvuee-198b6ee EPISODE TRANSCRIPT https://www.annastokke.com/transcripts/ep-67-transcript MUSIC Intro & Outro: Funk Jazz Big Band -  ColorFilmMusic Website: www.annastokke.com FB: Chalk & Talk IG: @chalkandtalkpodcast Tiktok: @chalkandtalkpodcast X: @rastokke LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anna-stokke-3a1b4c Bluesky: @rastokke.bsky.social