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I first came across Chris Arnade with the rollout of his book, “Dignity: Seeking Respect in Back Row America.” It’s a terrific book, and explores community, human struggle and American cities and towns in ways that most books do not. He sort of became “the McDonald’s guy” after that book, but it’s really so much more. Over the last few years, Chris has been writing a Substack called “Chris Arnade Walks the World.” I might effusively compliment Chris too much in this episode, but I truly mean it. His writing and approach to writing is truly unique, often surprising and always interesting. In a certain way, Chris’s writing has filled a void, for perhaps just me personally, that was left by the death of Anthony Bourdain. Now, that may seem a strange comparison, and Chris might not even enjoy it. But what Bourdain often did was to use food (and later martial arts) as a lever to trying to understand people better all over the world. As time went on, he also explored more and more places off the beaten path as he sought understanding beyond the travel magazines or websites, or beyond what most of us see when we travel internationally. Food and cooking is not Arnade’s schtick, but his writing (and photography) follow his own curiosity about people and culture that I see as a bit analogous to Bourdain. Arnade is looking through his own lens, and his own unique set of curiosities, but as a reader, I feel it still converges on striving to more deeply understand humans. And as someone who also occasionally writes about walking, I find a strong connection to this approach. In this episode, we cover some of the ground and topics that Arnade frequently covers, and diverge to talk more about places that surprise him, and what his travels have taught him about life in the USA. I hope you enjoy. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

For most of my career, people in the urban planning, architecture and development world have almost completely avoided the discussion on crime and order in cities. We seem to like to pretend it’s either not important, or we have nothing to say about it beyond CPTED (Crime Prevention through Environmental Design) techniques. In many cases, I just have people hand-wave the issue away, as if it doesn’t really matter - “crime will happen no matter what, I’m not an expert,” blah blah blah. Let’s talk about zoning standards and street design instead. Today I discuss why this issue needs to be front and center, especially now as most suburbs build out their own downtowns and walkable neighborhoods. I discuss the importance of seeing your own city as others see it, and what the actual marketing proposition is for living in a city. I admit for most of my life, I have not cared enough nor focused enough on this issue. I’ve probably had the same, very typical attitudes you see in the professional, urban world. That’s simply no longer the case, as I’ve gotten much more of an insider’s view, and as my own city has suffered through demand destruction due almost primarily to this problem. And, it’s not unsolvable, either. Many of the solutions just involve making this a clear priority, and getting everyone focused on it as a team. Perhaps I’ll dive more into that in the future. For now, I rant. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

You might wonder how a podcast on urban planning, design and development could get interested in the arcane subject of property taxes. Except that, it’s all over the news lately, and its another fundamental issue than actual normies care about. People in my city have left it because of outrageous tax re-assessments. Developers and investors won’t invest in my County because of the same. And, frankly, we are a fairly no-drama, modest cost part of the world compared to many places. So I turned to Jaime Izurieta to start this conversation. Over at his Substack, The Vertical Sidewalk, Jaime recently authored a piece called “When the Levy Breaks,” which is a thorough introduction to how we got here with property taxation. I found the history incredibly interesting, and as a good a starting point as any for diving deep into this topic. As Jaime likes to say, “We don’t know that our way of doing this is the best. And we don’t know it isn’t.” But if we don’t start by understanding how we got here, we’ll never understand how to move forward. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Returning champion Aaron Lubeck joins me to discuss his exceptional piece called, “Revisiting Euclid v. Ambler at 100,” which he posted on his Substack “On Housing.” Aaron also posts and helps curate “Southern Urbanism” - an excellent publication I highly recommend. While a lot of ink has been spilled and words shared about the impact of the Euclid v Ambler case, Aaron’s column adds some new wrinkles and information to it that even surprised me. We talk in some detail about the case itself, the arguments made, and the people you might be surprised that were considered the “out” groups in that era. We also talk some about what a post-Euclid world could look like, and the implications for the planning profession. Because Aaron and I can’t stop at just one topic, we also hit on some of the perverse consequences of building and energy codes, and how “The modern world destroys all that cannot be quantified” as he states. Oh also, Mel Brooks at 100, and the need for more satire in our lives. Enjoy. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Architect, Author, Photographer and New Urbanist Steve Mouzon joins me to tell his story about the emergence of New Urbanism in a location that many would consider unlikely. Huntsville, Alabama might be known for Space Camp, but it’s not widely known as a place to find great urban design and architecture. And that’s a shame, because there’s more lessons to learn here for most cities than by flying to a big, coastal market. Steve talks about the emergence of the Village of Providence in the early 2000s, its unique characteristics, and how that project also influenced the rebirth of downtown Huntsville. He also shares some of his own travails and triumphs, asking “why not us?” For more on Steve’s work, please do check out his incredible resource at The Original Green. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

We bring back my brother Dean on this episode, to talk about how we often let our fears overrun our lives, and how to get beyond them. Dean is not just one of my favorite humans on the planet, he’s also a clinical psychologist, author of a number of books on the Mississippi River, and a world traveler. His newest book, “Better Safe than Sorry: Slow Boats, Chicken Buses, and the Radical Choice to Trust the World” is coming out in late August. For people who care about their communities and often wrestle with the fear of change, understanding what drives us and the psychology behind fear is essential. But even more so, we must understand how we can take steps to help people overcome those fears. Dean’s latest book is a study in how someone can gradually, incrementally overcome deep-seated worries or fears. He writes about how difficult it was for him to take risks as a young adult, and how over time that gave way. More importantly, he shares examples of how leaning into discomfort can frequently result in some of the greatest joys of life. I often ask when it comes to change in cities, “what are we really afraid of?” And I’m not trying to be dismissive - some change really can be for the worse. American cities have seen a lot of that in the 20th century, especially with massive urban renewal efforts. But it’s also true that most of our fears are unfounded, or rooted in something deeper. We like change, but we don’t like change. Or, we want a certain kind of change. And yet, our messy lives change whether we want them to or not. Dean’s book and our conversation tries to help people to not let fear rule your life, so that you might truly enjoy it. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

It’s very easy for all of us to get caught up in status quo bias. We live the way we do, it must be fine, right? The way things are surely is the way they’ve been for a very long time, and probably got this way for good reasons. Or so we think, if we think about it at all. I think about this a lot when I think about how we finance, design and build infrastructure. Sitting here in 2026, we have so many assumptions about the way things have always been, and that what we’ve landed on is the best way. But is it, really? For these, questions, I turned to brothers Vince and Geoff Graham. Vince and Geoff are true Renaissance men. They’re developers who have developed some of the most beautiful and inspirational communities of the last few decades. Those include Newpoint, in Beaufort, South Carolina and I’On in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. Both were wildly successful examples of New Urbanism, and showcased that we are still capable of building timeless, traditional places. But beyond their development endeavors (which continue, in less talked-about projects), they are both deeply curious and knowledgable about a wide range of topics. They’ve got a depth of understanding of history that is unique, and ask all the right, and hard, questions about the way we do things. We dive into a fair amount of American history in this episode, but I hope you’ll see how it all ties together with our difficult conversations today about infrastructure, community, and much more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

I get personal in this episode, in order to ask questions about the nature of what is called the “housing crisis.” Are we all just doom-pilling way too much? As a case study, I talk through the life and history of my parents, and discuss whether or not their life and lifestyle is still available today. I discuss house sizes, mortgage rates, lifestyle choices, lifestyle inflation, and more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” AI Transcript Introduction Welcome back to The Messy City Podcast. This is Kevin Klinkenberg. I’m going to do something a little different today and just talk without a guest about the topic of housing in particular and how it ties into a few other kind of hobby courses of mine. Why Challenge the Housing Narrative Really what I want to spend some time doing is taking a contrarian view of how we talk about the so-called housing crisis. And in one sense, this is kind of fun for me to do. One of the things I really loved about my father is when we would have our discussions or debates in the family about various things that were going on, he would often take an opposite view of Almost just for the sport of it. And the truth is, there are a lot of times he was so good at it, you didn’t really know if he felt that way or not. Because he could do really well to argue multiple sides of an argument. And that was really a lot of fun. It was an education for me. It’s something I wish more people would just do generally and try to see an issue from multiple perspectives and try to steel man different perspectives or perspectives that are different from your own. And so I’ve kind of taken to obviously do that if you know me at all. You know I’ve done that a fair amount in my own life. Not nearly as good as my father was at it, but it has been fun to do occasionally. And I really wanted to apply this to the topic of housing. And there’s a couple of reasons for this. And this also ties into a story. I’m going to tell you a little bit of a story about my parents and how they grew up and their trajectory through life, because I think it’s actually very relevant to this topic. And whether or not we have a housing crisis at all in America, or if we do, what is the actual nature of of that crisis. And I want to talk about this because I just see so much online and in person conversation that I just feel like there are too many people, especially too many young people that have been kind of doom pilled on life today and life in America generally. And the thing that I want to start out that I really want to propose to everybody and talk about is the life that my parents had And their trajectory through life is still available today. It is absolutely and unequivocally still available to anyone who wants to choose the life that they lived. And in my opinion, obviously, I knew them really well. In my opinion, they had a tremendous life. They had a great life. They’ve both passed on in recent years. And so I have to talk in the past tense. But by any measure that matters, they had a great life. They lived well into their 80s. They had four kids. We actually all like each other. So it’s not just like a, you know, there are some families where you can say, well, I love my family. But as my brother used to say, or after my dad passed, he would say, you know, that... We didn’t just love our parents, we really liked our parents. And I think if you’re fortunate to be in a family like that, you know a little bit of what I’m talking about. And the four of us as children all... We get along. We’re still all friends with each other and get along. We enjoy being together. We’re all very different people with different interests and different worldviews. In some senses, we had pretty different childhoods, interestingly enough, because there’s a big age spread in our family. So my parents had four kids that they raised. They had a long, stable marriage. They were able to get consecutively better houses as they aged. And then by the time they hit retirement age, they had saved enough money to be able to do other things that they wanted to do. Along the way, they traveled when they wanted to. They really wanted to get out and see the country, see the world. When we were young, that traveling mostly involved just driving around the United States and going to national parks and big cities and seeing the sights. As they got older and had a little bit more disposable income, they would join tour groups and go or sometimes with family to foreign countries and places they really wanted to visit. And I want to give you some context because my parents were not people that grew up with money at all. And I’m going to share some of this because I think it’s important to understand. How they came to be where they were and some of the choices they made and how it might impact choices that young people especially could make today. My Parents’ Story My mom grew up very poor. She spent a part of her childhood living in a housing project in Syracuse, New York. And she was one of five kids and they, you know, her whole childhood they never had any money for much of anything. And they often lived in not the greatest part of town, in Syracuse, even when they got out of the housing project. And my dad grew up in a small town in Kansas called Baser, which is just outside the Kansas City area. But at the time when he was growing up, it was a dusty little town of like 600 people. And, again, one of five kids. And his dad was an auto mechanic, had his own garage, but also just, you know, like people do in Little Towns, did a little bit of everything. He drove a school bus. We helped out with the mail. We did a lot of different things in the town. But it’s not like they ever really had any money. My Uncle George, one of my dad’s brothers, used to say that they were all poor, but they didn’t know it. And part of that is the nature of living in a small rural community. They had a lot of spare time and freedom to roam. And so they probably were able to, you know, occupy themselves with a lot of things that maybe other kids weren’t. My mom’s father, my mom’s parents had a really difficult marriage. My grandfather, her father basically worked in a deli in Syracuse and he And so he worked in a Jewish deli. He was a very, very personable guy, made a lot of his own, made his own corned beef and bagels and everything. And a lot of the customers liked him, but it’s not like he ever really made a lot of money. And he and his wife, my grandmother, had a really difficult time, eventually ended up divorcing. And my parents ended up meeting each other in sort of a star-crossed romance that I don’t really have time to tell the entire story. But it ended up that they met when my mom was visiting a friend in Leavenworth, Kansas. And... Not too long after that, a romance ensued and eventually a marriage. My parents were born in 1935 and 36, so they’re not boomers. They’re sort of, I guess, what you would call as greatest generation. But they were too young to be deeply invested in the Great Depression or World War II. They were little kids, really, when all that was going on. So I guess in a sense what you could say is they had the cultural memory of those things. They grew up understanding what life was like in the Great Depression. They grew up poor. They grew up during the war and they knew all that that was going on and they were very well attuned to it, but they weren’t part of it. And I think like a lot of people who grew up in that era, they were really affected, especially by the poverty of what was happening. So one of the things that we used to always say about my mom is she could stretch a nickel like anybody’s business. She was frugal her entire life. And that really came from growing up with next to nothing. And then for many years... After they were married and started having kids, they were living off basically one salary, not like a big salary or anything, for a long time. And so my mom really had to stretch everything to make ends meet. I’m going to come back to the housing part of this because I think there’s some importance to all this. The Housing Ladder My parents got married in 1957, on Christmas Eve of 1957, and then right after that, flew off to Germany. My dad at the time, 21, 22 years old, he had been working a little bit, but he decided he wanted to enlist in the Army, and they spent two years in the Army. He was basically sent off to Germany. And so obviously, you know, late 50s, a great time to be sent off to Germany. No active fighting or anything going on. And they spent two years there. My oldest sister was born in Germany. And then my next sister, I guess you could say, was conceived in Germany. And... And then born back here in the United States when they came back. So by the time they came back to the United States, it’s about 1960, and they’ve got two little kids. And at that time, shortly after they bought their first house, which was in a not so great part of the Kansas City area. It was in Kansas City, Kansas. It was not a terrible area, but not like the greatest. And they bought a small house. And I’ve had some trouble finding out the exact details in this house, but I think it was probably a two or three bedroom with one bath. It’s since been added on to, so it’s hard for me to know exactly. But in this period of time, 1960 or so, that would have been their first house. And, you know, my siblings are just going to really... I want to mock my lack of understanding on some of these details, but I think by the time they left that house, my brother had also been born. So there were three kids there. And I want to trace

Eric Kronberg is back again, to dive deeper into the topics of housing choice, scale and essentially - what works and what doesn’t. Eric’s firm, Kronberg Urbanists & Architects, produces some of the routinely best graphic content to explain these complex issues. In this episode, in particular we discuss his updated Housing Choice Catalog, which is a tour de force of a document for anyone remotely interested in these issues. We discuss how to implement change, what some of the more important changes, are, and how to do this in real American towns and places. We also hit on one of my favorite topics, which is a discussion of what scales more quickly: small-scale infill or large multifamily/mixed-use projects. If you stick with us, you’ll also learn about the model to have a successful neighborhood center built around Homer Simpson’s favorite things. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Stand by for a very Kansas City-focused episode. For this one, Abby Newsham and I were invited to record a live podcast during KC Design Week, at the Kansas City Art Institute. Abby now hosts the Unconventional Urbanism podcast. While there’s some inside baseball in here for Kansas City people, we also cover issues that are germane to cities all over, including: * development / redevelopment issues in urban core communities * elimination of minimum parking regulations * creating high-value pedestrian amenities * catalytic large projects * why it’s important to have a growth mentality * the critical issue of public safety in urban communities Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

The tale of Route 66 might seem like just a tale of freedom on the road, the great American desire for exploration, and our love affair with the car. And it is all that. But it’s also much more. It’s about the cities, towns and unique places all along the route and their stories. Chris Elisara and John Paget are sharing those stories, in a 100th anniversary documentary about Route 66. I happened to catch up with them in Springfield, Missouri, which is where Route 66 was in some part given birth. Chris and John own First and Main Films, and have their own love affair with telling stories of underdog cities and towns. We crossed paths originally with the New Urbanism Film Festival, which has now evolved into something much bigger called the Better Cities Film Festival, based in Detroit. Be sure to catch their work about Route 66, something that has occupied them for something close to a lifetime, and which tells us so much about America’s history and our cities and towns. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Sometimes a local story is just that - a local story. And sometimes it transcends. Yes, Mike Zeller is very much rooted in Kansas City, and this is a very local story about how to take advantage of our long-overlooked river assets. But this story is really so much more than all that. This is about finding value in what other people might not see; about perseverance; about not giving up when so many others would on a “crazy” idea. More than anything, this is about not giving up on yourself. The Rock Island Bridge in Kansas City may indeed become a local landmark - I believe it’s well on the way. But this is so much more about having confidence in yourself and your ideas, and not assuming the “experts” and the “professionals” have it all figured out. How many times have you said, “someone should do something with that?” Maybe that someone is you. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Every so often, an idea comes along that makes so much sense it makes you wonder - why haven’t we been talking more about this? In that vein comes today’s guest, Eli Smith, who is pioneering something called the Faith-Based Housing Initiative. Eli describes it well, but there’s a fascinating juncture here of issues related to churches and faith institutions of all kinds; the societal issues around loneliness; and the lack of housing - especially meaningful, community-based housing. Eli and his partners help cohorts of faith-based institutions in certain markets to identify how they can develop housing themselves, often on excess land they aren’t using. While this runs up against a whole other set of issues that churches and temples face, it offers a glimpse at something very hopeful as well. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Zach Molzer is 25, and he wants you to know that’s an advantage. His team is young, energetic, and optimistic. His story of quickly becoming a developer with impact in Kansas City shows us that you don’t need to have decades of experience. You just need to want to do it badly, and get others excited about your vision. In just a couple of short years, Zach has created a company, undertaken two very complex redevelopment projects, created a huge presence on social media, built a bus stop out of an actual bus, connected with local elected officials, and is gearing up for much more. I hope you find inspiration in how Zach relates to us, that you can just do things. You don’t need permission, you don’t need the approval of a committee - you can just decide to do something, and pursue it relentlessly. For those of us that are frequently skeptical of the value of social media, Zach also offers a lesson in how to use the technology to great advantage. Check out his Twitter/X page or YouTube for more. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe

Bobby Fijan doesn’t want you to give up on families living in cities. One thing he said in this episode that really stuck out with me, “People tolerate disorder less when kids are around.” I think that’s right on, and that we too easily acquiesce to the notion that cities are just for the young, or the retired. Bobby, like many of my guests, isn’t content to just talk about the issues. He’s become relentless in his pursuit of the best family-friendly floor plans for urban living, and has now taken that to the creation of the American Housing Corporation. Their motto might as well be, “rowhouses for all.” Bobby and his partners are pursuing true vertical integration of a nationwide development company, with the goal of doing really great urban infill housing. Can they do it? I wouldn’t bet against them. Find more content on The Messy City on Kevin’s Substack page. Music notes: all songs by low standards, ca. 2010. Videos here. If you’d like a CD for low standards, message me and you can have one for only $5. Intro: “Why Be Friends” Outro: “Fairweather Friend” Get full access to The Messy City at kevinklinkenberg.substack.com/subscribe