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Their family built a catering company that served around 80,000 meals a day. After they sold it, Samer and his brother Sami asked what would happen if they filled a kitchen with food founders instead. KiCo is a co-working kitchen and food founder community in The Hague. This conversation is about the gap between a home kitchen and a co-manufacturer, why chefs are often the missing perspective in food startups, and why big food keeps getting surprised by its own trend reports. In this conversation we discuss: 🍽️ How Samer's family grew a catering company in the UAE to around 80,000 meals a day, and the question they asked after selling it 🏠 The gap between a home kitchen and a co-manufacturer, and why founders get stuck on the "hamster wheel" 🏗️ Why they chose infrastructure and knowledge, and how a dark kitchen built on virtual concepts pushed them toward founders 🧑‍🍳 How common a chef background is among KiCo founders, and what a chef brings to a food brand 🧪 Sami's pilot event: chefs cooking with ingredient startups' products for retailers, manufacturers and policymakers, and why "Will people eat this?" is the question that matters 💡 Why you never hear of hackathons in food, and the case for bringing in junior chefs 📉 Why big food keeps getting surprised by its own trend reports, and why Sami says focus groups don't work 🛒 Why a startup's power is in building its own following 🔮 What comes next for KiCo, including a surprise planned for early 2027 🌐 KiCo: https://www.kico.kitchen/ 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system. 🌐 Website: https://www.fugitivechefs.com 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs 🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088 📩 Beyond the Pass: https://beyondthepass.substack.com 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast

Recorded the week I turned 30, this is a solo check-in — on what's changed since I left consulting work to become a Senior Innovation Chef at Kraft Heinz, and on an idea I keep coming back to: that "paying your dues" might be the most outdated piece of career advice still floating around food. In this episode, we discuss: Why working inside a major food company surprised me more than I expected it toThe real cost of skipping steps — and why I don't think waiting your turn means what we're told it meansWhat changed at Fugitive Chefs this year: the guests, the community turning one, and a line I finally stopped debating with myselfA few names and conversations shaping where the show goes next 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system.🌐 Website: https://www.fugitivechefs.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088📩 Beyond the Pass: https://beyondthepass.substack.com📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast

Should you go to culinary school? The president of the Culinary Institute of America says it depends. A head of school says you might not need the next degree. And I never went at all. Over the last year, I've asked this question to very different people on Fugitive Chefs. This episode puts their answers side by side: two chefs mid-way through the Master's in Gastronomic Sciences at the Basque Culinary Center, the president of the CIA, a head of school in New Zealand, and me, a chef who skipped culinary school entirely. In this episode we discuss: - Why the CIA's Michiel Bakker answers "it depends," and when culinary school becomes just an expensive hobby - Harsh and Hans on the real investment behind a culinary Master's, and what it actually opens up - The gap between manager-level promises and entry-level reality after a degree - Adrian Woodhouse (Otago Polytechnic) on imposter syndrome, collecting credentials, and who really owns culinary knowledge - Why career changers are the group culinary education rarely talks about - Skipping culinary school: the door I had, and what hiring conversations actually asked me - The four different questions hiding inside "should I go to culinary school?" 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system. 🌐 Website: https://www.fugitivechefs.com 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs 🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088 📩 Beyond the Pass: https://beyondthepass.substack.com 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast

Most food industry job requirements don't make sense until someone who's actually applying explains why. In this episode I cook pasta with Vincenzo, a Kraft Heinz intern about to finish up and go job hunting, and we get into what the process really looks like right now. We discuss: Why AI resume readers are changing what a good CV should look likeWhy entry-level food jobs keep asking for years of experience nobody starting out hasHow restaurant experience gets overlooked in food R&D hiringThe real difference between interning in a restaurant and interning at a food companyPractical advice if you're interning in food right now🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system.🌐 Website: https://www.fugitivechefs.com🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088📩 Beyond the Pass: https://beyondthepass.substack.com📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast

De Nieuwe Winkel has two Michelin stars, a green star, and a dining room it wants to depend on less. About a year ago, the restaurant started DNW Lab: an R&D arm set up as a separate entity so it can work directly with universities and with industry. I recorded this one in person at the restaurant in Nijmegen, on their Sunday off, which almost never happens on this show. Jan Majoor is Head of R&D, from a food technology background at Wageningen. George Erotokritou is Head of Gastronomic Development, out of the Basque Culinary Center, Spora and Alchemist. Both are co-founders of the lab alongside Emile van der Staak, who owns the restaurant. In this episode we discuss: 🔬 Why the lab had to be a separate entity instead of a department inside the restaurant 🍫 Chocolate made from fermented chestnuts, with no cocoa beans and no cocoa butter 🛒 Why that product can't reach a supermarket shelf, from solid state fermentation to allergens to price ⚖️ Why product development starts by asking how to cut costs, and what the lab refuses to start from 🌰 Buying the entire harvest from the only Dutch sweet chestnut producer to prove agroforestry can pay 🔒 Whether a restaurant can protect what it creates, and why IP isn't the real worry yet 📈 The plan for lab revenue to balance or overtake the restaurant 🗓️ Four-day weeks, and serving the same menu at a lower price to more people 🧩 What still isn't solved between the lab and the kitchen 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system. 🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com 🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs 🎥 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs 🍎 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088 📩 Beyond the Pass: https://beyondthepass.substack.com 📸 Instagram: https://instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast

🎙️ Most people think a restaurant R&D kitchen is where new dishes get invented. What I saw looked closer to a library than a laboratory. In this solo episode I break down what restaurant R&D actually is, based on four years in fine dining at Mugaritz and Noma, then three and a half years doing R&D at Basque Culinary Center, and now as Senior Innovation Chef at Kraft Heinz. This is the on-ramp to next week's episode on De Nieuwe Winkel, the two-Michelin-star restaurant in Nijmegen that turned its R&D into a separate business. In this episode we discuss: 🔹 What an R&D kitchen or test kitchen actually does on a normal Tuesday🔹 Why R&D teams are physically separated from the service kitchen, and why that separation is structural rather than cosmetic🔹 The seasonal pipeline problem: creating in January for an ingredient that only arrives in August🔹 Why restaurants deliberately hold back portions they could have sold🔹 Why the method, not the dish, is the actual asset a restaurant owns🔹 Why some failures are deliberately left undocumented🔹 Who actually gets hired into these rooms, and why food science degrees are not the entry point🔹 What changes when a method leaves the restaurant and enters industry🔹 Gold standard: what it means and why it matters Mentioned in this episode: 📌 What Is a Corporate Chef? Breaking Down the Real Roles Inside Food Companies → [link]📌 Jozef Youssef, Kitchen Theory, on the science of flavour and gastrophysics → https://open.spotify.com/episode/6zMM7znbNPttrHbpeuFWpj?si=993b10c091be4bde📌 S1E14 John Regefalk, Basque Culinary Center → https://open.spotify.com/episode/3NvdgFKGaL8OcmzxEPB8z3?si=140203f4a7b84424📌 Beyond the Pass, "The Recipe Was Never the Capability" → beyondthepass.substack.com 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path. 🌐 Website: ⁠www.fugitivechefs.com⁠ 📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/furqanmeerza/ ⁠🎧 Podcast Instagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast/ 🎵 Spotify: ⁠https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A⁠ 🍏 Apple Podcasts: ⁠https://apple.co/43vBtbT⁠ ▶️ YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Most chefs measure a career in kitchens. Tiffany Poe has measured hers in classrooms, boardrooms, and now, AI chats at 2am. In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Furqan sits down with chef, educator, coach, and AI trainer Tiffany Poe to trace a 25-year career that moved through restaurants, culinary education, corporate food, professional coaching, and artificial intelligence — including the year she lost her job, and how she rebuilt from there. In this episode we discuss: Tiffany's "Forrest Gump career" and why none of it was plannedGetting unexpectedly "kidnapped" into a culinary education careerWhat's broken about how culinary education is priced and structured — and what's actually changingWhy competency-based, micro-credentialed learning is replacing the four-year degree modelLosing her corporate chef role during COVID, and how that became a coaching careerLetting go of the "hats" she'd built her identity aroundWhy she calls herself a "possibilitarian" — and the story behind itThe biggest misconceptions chefs have about AI, and why she calls it "the most consequential tool" the profession has ever hadHer advice for any chef with something going on their back burnerLearn more about Tiffany's work:🔗 Website: https://tiffanypoe.com/ 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path.🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

I had an admission letter to culinary school in my hand. I never used it.Some of you told me this podcast is starting to feel like an advertisement for culinary school. It's not — and I want to correct that directly instead of letting it sit.This solo episode is my honest answer: the specific things that became possible for me because of the door I actually had in front of me, not because skipping culinary school is better than going.Join the Fugitive Chefs Circle - a community for people building better careers, organisations, and ideas in food: 🌐 https://fugitivechefs.kit.com/297093b0dcIn this episode, I explore: Why I never used my culinary school admission letters — and what a one-bedroom apartment in Bombay had to do with itThe real financial gap between hotel management and culinary school in India, and why IHM Mumbai wasn't a backup planWhat I didn't know walking into European kitchens for the first time — and the hazelnut praline moment that exposed itWhy nobody at Mugaritz, Noma, or Kraft Heinz ever asked me how many degrees I hadThe two years I spent undocumented in Spain, and why I don't recommend anyone copy that pathWhy the real problem isn't culinary school — it's that there's no map connecting kitchens to the rest of the food systemWhat I'd actually tell 19-year-old me, and what I think about the Michael Bakker and Adrian Woodhouse episodes🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system.📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Every restaurant Alan Bergo ever worked at closed. In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Alan — known online as the Forager Chef — shares how walking away from restaurant kitchens didn't mean walking away from food. It led him to become one of the world's most respected voices on wild ingredients, foraging, and building a business entirely on his own terms. In this conversation we discuss: Growing up grounded with a cookbook, and landing his first industry job at McDonald'sTaking a $2-an-hour pay cut to learn under Heartland's menu that changed every single daySpotting a mushroom he'd just put on the menu while playing disc golf — and realizing he could forage it himselfWhy he built his own website instead of relying on social media ("a website is a house, social media is a rental")Getting "forced" out of restaurants after back-to-back closures, and monetizing his site overnight to survivePitching a Minneapolis restaurant a $500-a-week exclusive foraging retainer — and where that idea eventually ledMentoring chefs who want to leave restaurants, including the visioning exercise that changed his own pathWhy he now sees himself as more of a teacher than a chef Learn more about Alan's work:🌐 Forager Chef website: https://foragerchef.com/📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/foragerchef/ 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path.🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/furqanmeerza/🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fugitivechefspodcast/🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/57kmFAUgp6DhgnguexFuDs🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fugitive-chefs/id1676930088▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Should you go to culinary school? The most honest answer we got all year: "It depends." In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, I sit down with Michiel Bakker, the sixth president of the Culinary Institute of America, to talk about the future of culinary education — and what culinary expertise looks like in 2035. Before leading the world's most influential culinary college, Michiel spent 12 years at Google building their Food at Work program, and 17 years before that in global hotel operations with Starwood. His path into food education wasn't a straight line, and that's exactly why this conversation matters: he's spent his career at the intersection of hospitality, technology, and now higher education. In this episode, we explore: Why "it depends" might be the most honest answer to "should I go to culinary school?"Michiel's Vision 2035 — and what he hopes the food industry looks like a decade from nowWhy AI could kill creativity for chefs, or free them to be more creative than everThe industry's shared responsibility around diet-related diseaseWhy stackable credentials and short-form courses may replace the traditional 4-year degreeWhat CIA looks for in educators — practitioners vs. traditional academicsThe transferable skills chefs don't realize they already haveWhy Michiel believes the future workforce will be human, AI agent, and robot — all at onceJoin the Fugitive Chefs Circle - a community for people building better careers, organisations, and ideas in food: 🌐 https://fugitivechefs.kit.com/297093b0dc 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system.🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Culinary school taught you bechamel. It didn't teach you how to prove you're capable of anything else.In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, I sit down with Adrian Woodhouse, head of school at Otago Polytechnic in New Zealand, to talk about why culinary education is still built around a narrow, traditional idea of what a chef becomes and why that no longer matches the industry.Adrian has spent years helping experienced chefs prove their capabilities without another degree, decolonizing a curriculum still rooted in French tradition, and rethinking what "industry readiness" actually means for graduates entering a food system that now includes R&D, food styling, social media, AI, and far more than restaurants.In this conversation we discuss: Why so many chefs default to more degrees and credentials before feeling legitimate outside kitchensThe imposter syndrome chefs carry when they step outside traditional kitchen pathsWhat "fair work" is, and why it shuts down growth in professional kitchensWhy some of the best chefs never stop thinking of themselves as apprenticesHow culinary curriculums are (slowly) being rebuilt around real industry needsWhat capabilities kitchens develop exceptionally well — and what they fail to develop at allThe future of culinary careers: food styling, product development, AI, and beyondLearn more about Adrian's work:🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adrian-woodhouse-89267636/🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system.📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Fugitive Chefs started with a simple question: what can chefs become beyond restaurants? A year later, that question feels too small. In this solo episode, Furqan shares why Fugitive Chefs is evolving from a podcast about alternative careers for chefs into a broader exploration of how culinary expertise can create value across the modern food system. Join the Fugitive Chefs Circle - a community for people building better careers, organisations, and ideas in food:🌐 https://fugitivechefs.kit.com/297093b0dc After a short pause in publishing, this is an honest look at what it takes to build a sustainable platform alongside a full-time job—and why the future of Fugitive Chefs will include more than career-transition stories. In this episode, we explore: • Why culinary expertise matters far beyond the restaurant• Why the podcast is expanding to include educators, researchers, founders, hiring leaders, and innovation teams• What restaurants, food companies, and culinary institutions can learn from each other• Why better careers for chefs require better systems around them• What is coming next for Fugitive Chefs 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores how culinary expertise creates value across the modern food system. 📸 Furqan’s Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Restaurants don’t have a chef problem. They have a systems problem. In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, I sit down with entrepreneur and former chef Yago Ferretti Gonzalez, founder of FoodWeb, to explore what happens when chefs stop accepting broken systems and start building better ones. After working in professional kitchens, Yago realised that many of the pressures chefs face aren’t inevitable. They’re the result of outdated systems, poor communication, and inefficient operations. Instead of opening another restaurant, he decided to build technology designed specifically for chefs. In this conversation we discuss: • Why some of the world’s best chefs are still underpaid• Why leadership matters more than technology• How AI could transform restaurant operations• Why chefs should spend less time managing chaos and more time creating• Building a food technology startup through Lanzadera• The future role of chefs in an AI-powered industry Whether you’re a chef, restaurant owner, food entrepreneur, or simply curious about where hospitality is heading, this episode offers a different perspective on what the next generation of kitchens could look like. Learn more about Yago’s work and resources: 🔗LinkedIn : https://www.linkedin.com/in/yago-ferretti-gonzalez-277743325/ 🌐FoodWeb : https://foodweb.ai/ 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path. 🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com 📸 Furqan’s Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv 🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO 🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A 🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT ▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs

Most chefs spend years trying to leave the kitchen. Stefan Loose did. After building a career that took him from a dishwasher in a small Greek restaurant to leadership roles across hotels, schools, healthcare, universities, and global food companies, he reached what many chefs would consider the destination: a corporate innovation role shaping food concepts at scale. Then he walked away from it. In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Stefan shares a career that spans nearly every corner of the food industry. From serving thousands of meals a day in elite boarding schools and Ivy League universities to developing products for one of the world’s largest potato companies, his story challenges what it means to be a chef in the modern food system. We discuss: • Starting as a dishwasher and joining the U.S. Army before culinary school • Moving to London with a one-way ticket • Building a career through hotels, banqueting, and leadership roles • Running culinary operations serving thousands of meals every day • What chefs can learn from healthcare, education, and contract catering • The transition from kitchens into corporate food innovation • Why soft skills become critical outside the kitchen • The mistake many chefs make when leaving kitchens • Why Stefan returned to a chef role after reaching corporate leadership • Staying relevant as the industry evolves • How success in the food industry is changing • Mental health, work-life balance, and the future of chef careers • Practical advice for chefs considering alternative career paths This conversation isn’t just about leaving restaurants. It’s about redefining what being a chef can mean. 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path.🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com 📸 Furqan's Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv 🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO 🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A 🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT ▶️ YouTube:    / @fugitivechefs

Most chefs spend years trying to move up. A better restaurant.A bigger title.A more prestigious kitchen. But what if the biggest opportunities aren’t above you? What if they’re somewhere you weren’t even looking? Karl Wilder never planned to build a food tourism company. He didn’t plan to spend years cooking across Italy after a translation mistake landed him in a kitchen. He didn’t plan to raise $1.4 million to buy a country club. And he certainly didn’t plan to help chefs around the world build businesses outside traditional restaurant careers. Yet that’s exactly where he ended up. In this episode of Fugitive Chefs, Karl shares a career that moved from kitchens to entrepreneurship, hospitality, food journalism, consulting, tourism, and back again, while never really leaving food behind. We explore : • How a simple misunderstanding in Italy changed the course of his career • Why some of the most valuable chef skills have nothing to do with cooking • What Karl learned from running restaurants and hospitality businesses • How food tourism became his next chapter • Why chef-led experiences are growing around the world • The difference between expertise and credentials • What Karl actually looks for when evaluating chefs • Why communication is often a chef’s most underrated skill • How chefs can create opportunities before leaving their day job • The problem with following the “standard” chef career path • Why many chefs struggle to imagine careers beyond kitchens • What happens when you start looking sideways instead of upwards One line from Karl stuck with me: “When you’re on a treadmill, you only see what’s in front of you. You can’t see what’s to the side.” This conversation is about looking to the side. 🌐 The Chef Tours https://thecheftours.com 🎧 Fugitive Chefs explores what happens when chefs step outside the traditional kitchen path. 🌐 Website: www.fugitivechefs.com 📸 Furqan’s Instagram: https://bit.ly/4dtiyTv 🎧 Podcast Instagram: https://bit.ly/43ndATO 🎵 Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3F6j25A 🍏 Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/43vBtbT ▶️ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@fugitivechefs