Advertise on podcast: Disarming Leviathan Podcast

What do we do with the Psalms that ask God to judge, punish, and even destroy enemies? And what happens when Christians take those prayers and use them to justify violence against political opponents, other nations, or people they believe threaten America? In this episode, biblical theologian Trevor Laurence helps us understand the imprecatory Psalms within the larger story of Scripture. Rather than dismissing these difficult prayers, Trevor shows how they give voice to people suffering under violence and oppression who are crying out for God to intervene and make things right. But these Psalms cannot simply be taken from ancient Israel and turned into prayers against our contemporary political enemies. Trevor explains how Jesus transforms our understanding of conquest, judgment, and God’s kingdom. The church advances God’s kingdom not through military power or state coercion, but through witness, baptism, discipleship, perseverance, and peace. And when Christians pray for justice, these Psalms should turn our attention toward Jesus, confront our own sin, and challenge the temptation to assume that God is always on our political side. Trevor Laurence is a biblical theologian, author, and Executive Director of the Cateclesia Institute. His work focuses especially on biblical theology, the Psalms, prayer, justice, and the church's worship. He is the author of Cursing with God: The Imprecatory Psalms and the Ethics of Christian Prayer and Reading the Psalms Theologically. His work helps Christians wrestle faithfully with some of Scripture's most difficult prayers while locating them within the larger biblical story centered on Jesus. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

The Bible contains a lot of violence. But what are Christians supposed to do with stories of conquest, divine judgment, and commands to destroy Israel’s enemies, especially when those texts are used to justify American military power or Christian Nationalist politics? In this episode, Old Testament scholar Matthew Lynch helps us slow down and read these difficult passages more carefully. He argues that Joshua is far more complicated than a simple blueprint for holy war. In fact, the book repeatedly disrupts easy categories of who is “us” and who is “them,” turns Israel’s attention toward the idols within its own community, and challenges attempts to enlist God in our political causes. Together, we explore how ancient Israel understood warfare, why commands of conquest cannot simply be copied and pasted into the modern world, and what these difficult texts might actually be trying to form in God’s people. Matt offers a reading of Joshua that calls Christians toward deeper discipleship, self-examination, and exclusive loyalty to God rather than providing religious cover for nationalism, military expansion, or political violence. About Matthew Lynch Matthew Lynch is an Old Testament scholar at Regent College whose work focuses on biblical theology, violence in Scripture, and the Old Testament’s vision of God and humanity. He is the author of Flood and Fury: Old Testament Violence and the Shalom of God and hosts the OnScript podcast. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Note: We experienced some technical difficulties during this recording. We cleaned it up as best we could, but you may hear an occasional echo. What happens after Christian nationalism begins to lose its grip? In this episode, Soong-Chan Rah argues that defeating a political movement is not enough because the deeper narratives that gave it life can simply take new forms. Drawing on theology, history, and pastoral wisdom, we explore how stories shape our imaginations, how Christian practices can either reinforce or resist unhealthy political identities, and why the church's calling is not to win the next culture war but to cultivate communities of lament, repentance, healing, and hope. Rather than replacing one political ideology with another, Dr. Rah invites Christians to embrace the self-emptying way of Jesus and participate in the slow work of forming a new imagination rooted in the Kingdom of God. Dr. Soong-Chan Rah is the author of numerous influential books, including Prophetic Lament, The Next Evangelicalism, Many Colors, and Return to Justice. In this conversation, he explores the deeper narratives that give rise to Christian nationalism and argues that lasting renewal requires more than political change. Instead, he calls the church to recover practices of worship, lament, community, and self-giving love that reshape our imaginations around the story of Jesus rather than the stories of power and grievance. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Why does the Old Testament contain so much violence, and what does it reveal about the character of God? In this episode, Charlie Trimm helps us wrestle with some of Scripture’s most difficult passages, from Joshua’s conquest of Canaan to the prophetic calls for justice. Rather than presenting a God driven by wrath alone, Charlie shows how these texts consistently portray a God committed to justice, opposed to idolatry and oppression, and equally willing to judge his own people when they abandon his ways. Together, we explore how these passages point Christians away from self-righteous violence and toward trust, humility, and faithful discipleship. Charlie Trimm is Professor of Biblical and Religious Studies at Talbot School of Theology and an Old Testament scholar specializing in warfare, violence, and the theology of the Hebrew Bible. His research examines difficult biblical texts within their ancient Near Eastern context while helping modern readers understand their theological significance. He is the author of The Destruction of the Canaanites and is currently writing a commentary on Exodus. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

The book of Revelation is often treated as a roadmap for the end times, a justification for violence, or a source of fear. But what if its central message is something entirely different? In this episode, David Mathewson helps us read Revelation through its own imagery, showing how the slain Lamb, not the beast, stands at the center of the story. Together we explore divine justice, the symbolic nature of Revelation's battle scenes, why Babylon continues to speak to every age, and how the book calls Christians to faithful witness, sacrificial love, and hope rather than anxiety. David Mathewson is a New Testament scholar whose research focuses on the book of Revelation, biblical theology, and apocalyptic literature. Through both academic and accessible writing, David helps Christians recover Revelation's original purpose: not to fuel speculation or fear, but to strengthen the church's worship, perseverance, and faithful witness in a world shaped by competing kingdoms. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Violence in the Bible often leaves believers disoriented—how do we reconcile the raw, gritty realism of biblical stories with our understanding of a loving God? Andy Judd unpacks the genre, history, and cultural context behind biblically violent moments, revealing that these accounts depict a world that's "not the way it’s meant to be." He explains how the Bible’s violence reflects real-world conflict, highlighting God's perseverance and love amid chaos, and urges us to see Scripture through the lens of Jesus, who embodies love, justice, and patience in a broken world. In this episode, you'll discover why the Bible’s violent scenes are historically grounded rather than recommendations; how ancient cultural norms influence these stories; and why understanding God’s character is key to interpreting them today. Andy breaks down complex topics such as divine judgment, biblical law, and the apocalyptic language of Revelation, clarifying how believers can responsibly engage with these texts. Perfect for anyone feeling confused or challenged by biblical violence, this conversation invites you to see Scripture as a story of hope—a cosmic battle already won by the Lamb, not a human tool for justification. About Andy Judd (andyjudd.com) Andrew is an ordained Anglican minister who joined the faculty at Ridley College Melbourne in 2018. Prior to moving to Melbourne he worked with students at St Barnabas Broadway and in the residential colleges of Sydney University. In 2017 he followed his wife Steph (who is also an Anglican minister) to Melbourne to take up roles at City on a Hill Melbourne, where he served as Community Pastor. Andrew teaches Old Testament, Hermeneutics and Biblical Theology, and is passionate about helping students grow in their confidence handling the whole Bible as God’s message to us. Andrew has recently completed his PhD on biblical hermeneutics through Sydney University, specifically focusing on Hans-Georg Gadamer’s phenomenology of play, Christian interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures, and why smart people seem to keep disagreeing on what the Bible means. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this conversation, Dan Hawk explores the history and theology behind Manifest Destiny—and why its legacy still shapes American identity today. Drawing a sharp connection between U.S. expansion narratives and the conquest themes of Scripture, Dan argues that confronting the painful truths of colonization, dispossession, and white supremacy is essential to justice and reconciliation. This episode invites listeners to rethink familiar national myths, tell the truth about the past, and consider how the church can become a more honest and healing presence in the present. About Dan Dan Hawk is a Christian author and educator focused on the intersection of faith, justice, and American history. He wrote Undoing Manifest Destiny: American Settlers, Christian Colonists, and the Pursuit of Justice and teaches at Ashland Theological Seminary. Dan’s work challenges listeners to examine the stories that shape our nation and to pursue truth-telling, reconciliation, and healing with courage and humility. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

What can America’s political and religious polarization learn from the history of Northern Ireland? In this episode, David Montgomery (”Monty”) reflects on decades of sectarian conflict and explains how fear, political identity, and religious symbolism became deeply intertwined in his own country. Drawing on his work with university students across Europe, Monty offers a thoughtful warning about the dangers of conflating national identity with Christian faith and invites believers to recover a vision of the church that transcends political tribes. Rather than calling Christians to build a “Christian nation,” he points us back to the kingdom of God and the cruciform way of Jesus. David Montgomery, known as "Monty," serves with International Fellowship of Evangelical Students, helping equip and support evangelical student movements across Europe. Based in Northern Ireland, he has spent decades working with university students, teaching Scripture, and helping Christians faithfully engage culture in increasingly polarized societies. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Was the United States founded as a Christian nation? In this episode, historian Warren Throckmorton separates popular myths from the historical record, exploring what America's founders actually believed about Christianity, religious liberty, and the relationship between church and state. Together, we examine why the founders intentionally created a government without an established religion, how religious freedom has strengthened both the church and the nation, and what faithful patriotism looks like in a country marked by both remarkable ideals and profound failures. Warren Throckmorton is a historian, researcher, and author whose work focuses on American religious history, Christian nationalism, and the historical claims surrounding the nation's founding. His book, The Christian Past That Wasn't, carefully examines the stories Americans tell about their origins and challenges readers to distinguish historical evidence from popular mythology. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

Most political debates skirt the core question: What does it mean to live as a faithful outpost of God's kingdom today? Michael Rhodes challenges us to root our political engagement in Scripture's vision of justice, love, and humility, emphasizing that biblical teachings expand our options—beyond the simplistic slogans of modern politics. You'll discover how Scripture illuminates the role of God's people as counter-cultural witnesses—live outposts dedicated first and foremost to Jesus’ reign. We break down concrete ways the Bible guides our approach to issues such as concentration of power, economic justice, and the common good, emphasizing wisdom, humility, and lived-out love. From early biblical models like Daniel and Esther to contemporary applications, this episode invites believers to see politics as part of their discipleship—an opportunity to witness, serve, and pursue justice in every sphere. About Michael Rhodes Michael J. Rhodes is an Old Testament scholar, author, and teacher whose work explores how Scripture shapes the public life and political witness of God’s people. He serves as Associate Professor of Old Testament at Carey Baptist College in New Zealand and is the author and co-author of several books, including Practicing the King’s Economy, Just Discipleship, and his newest release, Reimagining Biblical Politics: What Scripture Says About Public Life and Why It Matters. Through his writing and teaching, Michael invites Christians to recover the strange, beautiful, and often-overlooked political imagination of the Bible and to embody a faithful witness in their churches, neighborhoods, and communities. Show Notes* 01:07 - Rooting our politics in Scripture’s portrayal of God’s reign * 02:33 - Living as outposts of God’s kingdom in a divided world * 03:56 - Expanding the political toolbox through biblical narratives * 05:27 - Applying biblical wisdom to modern policy issues, such as unions * 08:40 - Models for faithful engagement in governance and justice * 11:06 - How to listen to biblical voices and interpret Scripture today * 12:35 - Understanding God’s economic priorities for the marginalized * 14:30 - The biblical critique of the concentration of power * 16:20 - The importance of wisdom and unintended consequences in policy debates * 19:12 - Stories of faithful Christians living out biblical justice * 20:35 - Recognizing the complexity of love and justice at a societal level * 23:24 - The church’s role in shaping faithful political engagement * 26:27 - How everyday believers can exercise justice in their spheres of influence * 30:35 - The joy and purpose of integrating faith with public life Resources & Links: * Reimagining Biblical Politics by Michael Rhodes * Just Discipleship — Michael Rhodes’ book on economics, wages, and justice * Crossroads Substack — Michael Rhodes’ newsletter and podcast series Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

What happens when a theology of hierarchy, control, and male authority moves from the margins into the mainstream? In this episode, Margaret Bronson shares her firsthand experience growing up in a patriarchal Christian Nationalist movement that emphasized male dominance, rigid gender roles, homeschooling, and authoritarian leadership. Drawing on both personal story and historical analysis, Margaret explains how these ideas spread through churches, seminaries, and family systems, and why many Christians are encountering them with increasing frequency today. Together, we explore the difference between the gospel of Jesus and religious movements built on fear, control, and domination—and discuss how curiosity, compassion, and pastoral presence can help people find a healthier path forward. Margaret Bronson is a writer, speaker, and advocate who helps people recover from spiritually abusive and authoritarian religious environments. Having grown up within a patriarchal Christian Nationalist movement, Margaret brings a unique insider perspective to conversations about power, theology, family systems, and faith. Through her work with Deconstruction Doulas, she helps individuals process religious trauma, reconnect with their own stories, and pursue healthier expressions of faith and community. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

What happens when the symbols commonly associated with Christian Nationalism mean something entirely different to the people displaying them? In this episode, Caleb sits down with Arizona State University professor, veteran, and pastor John Mark Sianghio to explore how Christian Nationalism is experienced and expressed within immigrant communities, particularly among Filipino-American churches. Drawing from his research, John Mark argues that while the dominant form of Christian Nationalism in America is deeply intertwined with white supremacy, immigrant communities often relate faith and nation in ways that challenge simple categories. Together they discuss patriotic church services, American flags in sanctuaries, military memorials, civic nationalism, immigration, public theology, and the complicated role symbols play in shaping communal identity. The conversation invites listeners to move beyond assumptions, approach others with curiosity, and consider how immigrant communities may offer alternative ways of imagining faithfulness in public life. About John Marc Sianghio John Marc is a scholar, pastor, veteran, and researcher at the Center for the Study of Religion and Conflict at Arizona State University. His work explores Christian Nationalism, immigration, civic identity, and the ways faith communities navigate questions of nation, belonging, and public life. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

For many Americans, conversations about refugees happen at the level of politics, policy, and headlines. In this episode, Clint Leavitt invites us into a different starting place: the stories of real people. Drawing from his friendship with a Congolese refugee and the research behind his book Cockroaches, God, Death and Mangos, Clint shares how personal relationships transformed his understanding of refugees, Scripture, and the church’s calling to welcome the stranger. Together, we explore how fear shapes our public imagination, what Christians miss when refugees are excluded from our communities, and practical ways ordinary people can love their refugee neighbors. Clint Leavitt is a pastor at Midtown Presbyterian Church in Phoenix, Arizona, a writer, educator, and advocate for refugees and displaced people. He is the co-author of the book Cockroaches, God, Death and Mangos, which tells the story of a Congolese family displaced by war and resettled in the United States. Through his pastoral ministry, teaching, and writing, Clint helps Christians engage issues of justice, hospitality, and public life with compassion and theological depth. Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this insightful interview, Mary Kaech from Phoenix Refugee Connections shares the history, current challenges, and opportunities in refugee resettlement in the U.S., emphasizing the importance of community involvement, faith, and understanding. Discover how refugees contribute to local communities and how Christians can actively participate in welcoming and supporting their neighbors. https://phxrc.org/ https://womenofwelcome.com/ 00:00Understanding Phoenix Refugee Connections 03:23The State of Refugee Resettlement in America 06:15The Refugee Experience and Community Integration 09:26Economic and Social Contributions of Refugees 12:32The Role of Faith and Community in Refugee Lives 15:12How to Get Involved and Advocate for Refugees 18:21Addressing Fear and Misconceptions about Refugees Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe

In this in-depth interview, Matthew Soerens discusses the global refugee crisis, U.S. immigration policies, and the biblical perspective on caring for refugees and immigrants. He highlights recent policy changes, the economic and moral implications, and offers practical ways for evangelicals and citizens to advocate for humane immigration reform. Chapters 00:00 Understanding the Refugee Crisis 01:59 Current State of Refugee Resettlement 05:07 Impact of Immigration Enforcement 08:58 The Cost of Immigration Policies 12:39 Advocacy and Political Responsibility 19:14 Engaging with Congress 24:53 The Role of Evangelicals in Immigration Seeking Refuge - https://amzn.to/4vc6xtF Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/matthewsoerens/ Website - https://www.worldrelief.org/ Get full access to Disarming Leviathan at disarmingleviathan.substack.com/subscribe