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What happens when municipalities stop trying to solve every problem alone? In this episode, members of the Pennsylvania Councils of Government explore how intermunicipal cooperation creates capacity, improves services and helps communities learn from one another. Patrick Conners of South Hills COG, Ben Estell of Centre Region COG, Lance Prator of Slate Belt COG, and Deborah Grass of PACOG share examples ranging from joint purchasing and shared equipment to regional parks, bike networks, planning and public safety. The conversation also looks at why COGs remain poorly understood, how cooperation can preserve local identity while expanding capacity, and why PACOG hopes to strengthen the statewide voice of councils of government. The episode previews PACOG’s September 1-2 conference in State College, themed “Better Together.” CHAPTERS: 00:00 — Introduction02:36 — What Is a Council of Government?05:45 — Centre Region: Consistency Across Municipal Borders09:56 — Small Communities, Shared Capacity13:39 — What Municipalities Gain from Working Together16:54 — Sharing Ideas and Not Reinventing the Wheel18:36 — Building Networks Across Municipal Borders20:47 — Cooperation, Consistency and Fairness23:31 — Creating Places to Solve Problems Together25:47 — Think Globally, Act Locally27:12 — What PACOG Brings to the Table31:28 — Learning From Other COGs32:58 — Who Should Be Paying Attention to COGs?34:34 — Building a Statewide Voice37:34 — Why Some Municipalities Hold Back43:00 — Making COGs More Visible44:53 — PACOG Conference Preview: Better Together48:13 — What Everyone Is Looking Forward To

When the Housing Crisis Comes to Town HallIn this APMM series episode, Nancy Hess speaks with John Ernst, Borough Manager of Lansdale, and Sandra Zadell, Township Manager of Upper Gwynedd, about what the housing crisis looks like from the municipal manager’s desk. The conversation begins with an encampment near the border of their two municipalities and moves into workforce housing, shelter, zoning, public opposition, state legislation, and the limits of what local government can do alone. John and Sandra offer a candid look at how housing pressure shows up in parks, public meetings, police calls, comprehensive plans, and the lives of people trying to stay housed. GuestsJohn Ernst Borough Manager, Lansdale Borough, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania Sandra Brookley Zadell Township Manager, Upper Gwynedd Township, Montgomery County, Pennsylvania For more content like this, subscribe to MuniSquare APMM An advocate for municipal management and professional assistance in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania The Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management (APMM) is an organization of professional township, borough, city, home-rule and county managers, administrators and COG directors. APMM is dedicated to the promotion of professional and effective local government management of Pennsylvania. Quotes“It might be more affordable — but affordable to who?” - John Ernst “As a municipal manager, I would never advocate for any state legislation that takes away local control... I strongly believe that towns should be able to govern. That's what our Commonwealth was founded upon." - Sandra Zadell “These are the small things that make a culture. This is what makes a community. It’s a way to show up for humanity, not a political leaning. That is just a human desire.” - Nancy Hess Mentioned in the Episode:Evicted: Poverty and Profit in the American City, by Matthew Desmond Recommended by Sandra. The book won the 2017 Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction and examines eviction as both a consequence and a cause of poverty. Upper Gwynedd Planning Commission presentation Background resource on the township’s planning work and the Pennbrook Parkway affordable housing development. Low-Income Housing Tax Credit Program (LIHCP) The federal tax credit program discussed by Sandra in connection with the Walters Group workforce housing development. Walters Group The New Jersey-based developer working with Upper Gwynedd on the proposed workforce housing development. Nomadland The film Nancy was trying to recall during the conversation. It is a narrative feature film starring Frances McDormand, not a documentary. It won Best Picture at the 2021 Academy Awards and was inspired by Jessica Bruder’s nonfiction book, Nomadland: Surviving America in the Twenty-First Century. Kayleigh Silver, LSW Administrator for Montgomery County’s Office of Housing and Community Development. Nancy spoke with Kayleigh as part of her background preparation for this episode. Pennsylvania zoning and permitting context The episode refers to recent reporting on how zoning, permitting, local regulation, and construction costs affect homebuilding in Pennsylvania. Pennsylvania House Bill 2186: Accessory Dwelling Units HB 2186 passed the Pennsylvania House on June 1, 2026, by a vote of 139–62. As of July 10, 2026, it had been referred to the Senate Urban Affairs & Housing Committee. The bill would require municipalities to allow accessory dwelling units by right in areas where single-family detached homes are permitted, while allowing some local standards related to safety and neighborhood compatibility. New Jersey affordable housing model Sandra references the New Jersey framework shaped by the Mount Laurel doctrine and the Fair Housing Act, which creates municipal fair-share obligations for affordable housing. The guests compare that approach with Pennsylvania’s stronger tradition of local control.

As producer and publisher here at MuniSquare on Substack, today’s post is hard to write… we have decided to bring the Generation on the Rise podcast to a close, at least for now. Dave, Brandon and Nancy start off with a little light bantor today before making their way to the core message which concerns the absence of Eden. This will not affect PCC Local Time podcast recordings or our MuniSquare podcast stream. Please subscribe to receive full content from our site that focuses on local government and public service! TIMESTAMPS00:00 Opening banter and music talk 03:00 Brandon on ICMA, APMM and the conference season 03:53 Nancy introduces the final episode 04:20 Decision to close this chapter of Generation on the Rise 05:05 Eden’s departure and what is publicly known 06:15 Why the public testimony required a response 07:10 What we know, what we do not know 07:50 Employee voice, risk and organizational recovery 08:20 Building in public and closing this chapter 08:54 Brandon reflects on the purpose of the podcast 09:35 Conversations people need but do not get formal training for 10:30 The value of candid professional dialogue 11:20 Continuing the conversation beyond the podcast 12:01 Dave reflects on Eden, Middletown and next chapters 13:00 Dave’s leadership lesson: people need to want to follow you 14:15 Authenticity, social intelligence and emotional intelligence 15:40 The danger of trying to be someone you are not 16:50 Mistakes, public judgment and professional recovery 18:10 Learning, growth and second chances in leadership 19:10 Investing in employees, boards and communities 19:45 Looking back on the podcast’s purpose and tone 21:00 Appreciation for listeners and future collaborations 21:47 Nancy reflects on Dave and Brandon’s growth 22:45 Gratitude, community and what comes next 23:40 Final goodbye and “take care of each other” 24:05 Closing banter and authenticity of the show 25:11 Nancy’s final words 25:37 Dave and Brandon close the episode

What does a mature emergency management program look like before a community is tested? In this 2026 APMM series episode of PCC Local Time, Nancy Hess talks with Shawn Kauffman, Fire Director for the Centre Region Council of Governments and former Emergency Management Coordinator, about the human infrastructure behind effective emergency response. Shawn shares what he has learned over 40 years in emergency services. The conversation explores the importance of local knowledge, technical skill, regional coordination, relationships with county and state partners, and the ability to bring people together across silos before a crisis occurs. It is a practical and hopeful conversation for local government managers, elected officials, emergency service leaders, and volunteers who want to understand where this field is headed Be sure to check out and subscribe ro MuniSquare for more content on local government. TIMESTAMPS 00:00 — Introducing Shawn Kauffman and the Centre Region model 01:40 — What mature emergency management looks like 02:30 — From silos to coordination 04:00 — Building relationships before the emergency 05:20 — Local knowledge versus technical training 07:00 — Why county relationships matter in Pennsylvania 08:40 — Regionalization as a practical solution 11:00 — Volunteer capacity and looking beyond municipal borders 12:20 — No-notice events and what keeps emergency managers up at night 15:00 — The infrastructure of relationships 16:00 — What silos look like in real life 18:00 — Who makes a good emergency management coordinator? 19:30 — Falling in love with emergency management 20:20 — Who needs to be at the table? 22:10 — Lessons from major events 23:50 — Creating a “community within a community” 25:00 — Leadership, ego, and resistance 26:40 — COVID and the loss of in-person cohesion 29:00 — Working with state police and large institutions 30:30 — Large employers, institutions, and local emergency planning 32:20 — The future of emergency management 33:40 — The next emergency manager 34:40 — AI, forecasting, and the human factor 36:00 — Emergency management as a career path 37:20 — Shawn’s own path into the work 38:00 — Closing reflections

"I need help." There are conversations in local government that change how you think about leadership. This is one of them. In this episode of PCC Local Time, I sit down with Chief David Lash of Northern York County Regional Police and Chief Dave Steffen, retired chief of Northern Lancaster County Regional Police, to talk about how the idea of wellness actually converts to meaningful outcomes inside a police agency. Link to an earlier episode with Chief David Steffen on Regional Policing Be sure to check out MuniSquare on Substack and our YouTube Channel TIMESTAMPS: 00:00 Opening: why wellness and policing are difficult to connect 02:00 A 25-year relationship: how it began 05:30 The shift in policing culture around wellness 10:00 February 2025: the UPMC shooting 13:30 Immediate response and the role of support systems 17:30 Continuity of care and leadership perspective 19:30 September 2025: the second critical incident 22:30 “Two minutes of hell”: what happened and what followed 24:30 Leadership under pressure and the role of relationships 26:30 The three-word call: “I need help” 28:30 Reframing wellness as culture, not program 29:30 Reducing stigma and normalizing support 31:00 Moving from reactive to proactive wellness 32:30 Total wellness: beyond mental health 34:00 Building access: systems, providers, and trust 36:30 Wellness and use of force: a possible connection 38:00 Mindfulness and officer buy-in 39:00 Feeling valued as a core metric 40:30 Resistance, generational differences, and adaptation 44:30 Extending wellness into the community 46:30 Budgeting for wellness as essential, not optional 48:00 Culture shift: from external image to internal strength 49:30 Closing reflections: what can be carried forward

Two municipal managers introduced host Nancy to the same book: Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Guidara. Chris Garges and Joe Hogarth (also Chief of Police) join her to unpack what a four-star Manhattan restaurant can teach local government. Through a municipal lens, they talk about the front of the house and the back of the house, how "toiling in obscurity" is part of our success, why imitating others is a bad idea, and what Joe calls the nobility of the work. This PCC Local Time podcast episode has been created in partnership with APMM - the Association of Pennsylvania Municipal Management. 🎧 Full show notes and quotes at MuniSquare. Subscribe and get more content like this. TIMESTAMPS:00:00 Opening: what can a restaurant teach local government? 00:02 How Joe and Chris found the book 00:05 Nancy’s restaurant story and the customer experience lens 00:07 Silos, roles, and balancing departments 00:09 Real teamwork across public works, police, and codes 00:11 Volunteer work and building connection across staff 00:13 Why stories matter in shaping culture 00:16 Purpose, community, and significance in public service 00:20 Chris on marathon mindset and mental toughness 00:22 Why collaboration meets resistance 00:23 Vulnerability and the myth of the all-knowing leader 00:26 Humility, learning, and asking better questions 00:27 Learn from others, but do not imitate blindly 00:29 Hierarchy, feedback, and speaking honestly 00:31 Hospitality as a daily dialogue 00:33 Younger employees and visible community impact 00:34 What leaders do with resistant employees 00:36 Encouraging people when the work never feels finished 00:38 One takeaway for managers 00:39 Nobility, purpose, and the meaning of service 00:41 Final story: when someone thanks an officer for arresting them

Why would anyone choose to evade governance, and what do contemporary versions of that choice look like in the communities we serve? What familial stories do we carry forward that are, at root, an attempt to evade government? The late James C. Scott, Yale political scientist, agrarian studies scholar, and, as he put it himself, an anarchist willing to raise only two cheers (as he titled one of his beloved books, Two Cheers for Anarchism), spent a career asking that question. Today we explore Scott’s book The Art of Not Being Governed, which outlines an arc of our history that is, for the most part, about people who have lived outside the reach of government systems. That we have fled, adapted, and re-integrated elsewhere, partly or fully, is fundamental to our human story. These stories reveal our diversity and resilience, but also our reluctance to be made “legible” to governments. Here with me are Dr. Mike Rowe (University of Liverpool), Dr. Tom Bryer (University of Central Florida, soon to be founding director of the Center for CivicLands and Democratic Stewardship at Old Dominion University), and Dr. Mandie Cantlin (township manager and lecturer at West Chester University). Together we take up Scott’s larger question: why do people stay within systems of governance, and why do they leave? Drawing on examples that range from Southeast Asia to contemporary communities, the conversation moves through themes of resistance, mobility, sustainability, and public trust. Our conversation offers many jumping-off points for deeper inquiry into how people navigate the edges of being governed. For those of us working in and around local government, Scott’s work asks us to look more closely at how people experience governance, and what it means to belong to a place. Check out MuniSquare.Substack.com and subscribe for more content on local government's role in our lives today. Timestamps00:00 — Molokai and the choice to say no05:30 — Why people stay or leave a place06:30 — Scott’s work and challenging linear progress09:30 — Rethinking prosperity and subsistence12:00 — Why people choose not to be governed13:30 — Modern examples: homeschooling and personal autonomy16:30 — Diversity, identity, and “legibility”18:00 — The push and pull of government in everyday life20:00 — Contemporary forms of resistance21:30 — Subsistence thinking in modern economies23:00 — Development, sustainability, and local choice24:30 — The role of government when people resist26:00 — Participation, “state picking,” and civic voice29:00 — Public trust and agency30:00 — Ecological systems and unintended consequences33:00 — Climate, risk, and the role of the state37:30 — Hill people, mobility, and “flight”40:00 — No single path forward41:30 — Civilization, exclusion, and who belongs45:30 — Living with tension in governance47:30 — Closing reflections

Brandon Ford rejoins Dave Pribulka and Eden Ratliff and wastes no time stepping back into the role of host. He deftly guides the conversation from how have expectations changed for managers to something much deeper that touches on what it means to be apolitical in this new reality and how compartmentalization may or may not serve the profession going forward. Check our MuniSquare for more content like this and be sure to subscribe! Chapters00:00 Sports and Local Engagement 03:56 International City Management Association Insights 09:30 Expectations of Local Government 18:44 The Role of Technology in Local Governance 23:13 Navigating Civic Engagement and Emotional Appeals 25:13 The Complexity of Local Governance 28:35 Engaging the Next Generation of Managers 30:26 The Balance of Politics and Management 32:34 Compartmentalizing Personal Beliefs in Governance 36:34 The Future of Political Neutrality in Local Government 40:18 Maintaining Professional Standards Amidst Political Pressures

Who gets to decide the value of a place? In other words, who gets to decide the metric? I brought that question to Christa Breum Amhøj, a Danish practitioner, researcher, and what I can only describe as a social architect because she reads a place the way a building architect reads a site. And to John Diamond, who sits in Manchester and has been watching the same tensions play out in the UK across decades of academic research, consultation, and engagement with emerging local government challenges. What follows is my attempt to trace the arc of what the three of us discovered together. Be sure to check out the full video on MuniSquare or our YouTube Channel and subscribe to get more content like this! Chapters01:39 — Opening: Who Creates Value in a Community?02:23 — Competing Definitions of Public Value03:38 — Rethinking Value: The Aging Society Example06:22 — Tourism, Resistance, and Local Control (Scotland Case)08:51 — Visible vs. Invisible Value11:11 — Micro-Experiments vs. Traditional Innovation14:53 — Professional Expertise vs. Local Knowledge19:43 — A Place Has Agency21:00 — Learning to Observe and Map a Place23:27 — From Problem-Solving to System-Based Thinking24:42 — Case Study: Faxe Municipality (Denmark)27:00 — Redesigning the Festival Through Community Input28:30 — Outcomes: Relationships, Access, and New Pathways32:49 — Why Process Matters More Than Outputs34:00 — Access and Infrastructure: The Transport Example37:45 — The COMPASS Model Overview42:30 — Managing Tension and Conflict in Co-Creation44:00 — Expanding the Definition of Prosperity46:30 — The Role of the Facilitator in Place-Based Work53:34 — Closing Reflections: Practice Over Theory

Economic development isn’t just about buildings and business, sidewalks and parking, blighted malls and dying downtowns, housing shortages and shrinking workforces, casino controversies and data center ordinances. It’s actually about facilitating conversations with the people invested in the outcomes. Keri (Miller) Kenepp, Director of Community and Economic Development for College Township, Pennsylvania, and Erin (Genest) Trone, Project Manager for BusinessPA at the Pennsylvania Department of Community & Economic Development, walk us through a maze of issues facing local governments today and grant us invaluable insights into how we can think about a future together. This episode is made possible by a partnership with APMM, the Association for Pennsylvania Municipal Management. Be sure to subscribe to MuniSquare to get full content that includes all episodes of PCC Local Time and much, much more. Chapters00:00 – Who Shapes the Future of a Place? (Episode Setup) 02:00 – Keri’s Non-Traditional Path into Economic Development 05:00 – The Expansive Nature of Local Government Roles 07:00 – “Creating the Conditions” for Development 08:30 – The Long Game vs. Election Cycles 10:30 – What Elected Officials Want (and Need to Say in Public) 12:30 – Casinos: Public Resistance vs. Legal Reality 15:00 – Data Centers: Misunderstanding and Zoning Constraints 17:00 – “We Have to Allow for All Uses” (Policy Reality) 20:00 – The Power of Community Resistance (Nestlé Case) 22:00 – The Blighted Mall and Risk-Taking in Development 23:00 – Understanding the Private Sector (Erin’s State Role) 25:00 – Matchmaking: Communities and Companies 29:00 – The Facilitator Role Defined 31:00 – Advising Elected Officials (Pros, Cons, and Decisions) 33:00 – Tension: Standards vs. Development (Affordable Housing) 36:00 – Sidewalks as a Case Study in Equity and Safety 38:00 – Developer Perspective: Why Projects Don’t Pencil Out 40:00 – Blighted Properties and “Highest and Best Use” 43:00 – Redeveloping the Mall (Zoning Shifts and Density) 45:30 – Parking: Outdated Assumptions and New Thinking 49:00 – Changing Mindsets About Walkability 50:30 – What Keri Had to Unlearn About Economic Development 53:00 – Erin on Labor Shortages, AI, and Shifting Metrics

Structural change in local government is rare. Therefore, we don’t often get the opportunity to learn how it works. My three guests today, Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman were invited to work with a group of engaged citizens in Millcreek Township, Erie County to shepard a community making its third attempt in fifteen years to restructure their local government. Millcreek is one of the largest second-class townships in Pennsylvania with nearly 55,000 residents, a sophisticated range of services, and all the complexity that comes with governing a community that size. Yet for decades, it has been run by three elected supervisors who, at their first meeting after each election, appoint themselves as the township’s full-time municipal administrators. This does not provide for a separation of powers between the people who set policy and the people who carry it out and creates a vacuum in the continuity of services. This episode is in many respects a rare master class in how to form a study commission and carry a recommendation through to the voters. But more importantly, it’s a frank, insider conversation about the dynamics behind the scenes, including the interviews, the resistance, the attacks, and what it takes to stay focused and transparent when the process gets hard. This podcast episode has been created in partnership with APMM, the association for professional municipal managers to enhance learning, leadership development and networking. Jerry Andree spent three decades as Township Manager of Cranberry Township in Butler County Pennsylvania and has been a steady presence in local government leadership across Pennsylvania. Even in retirement, he continues to teach, advise, and support communities working through complex challenges. Toby Cordek served more than 35 years as Town Manager of McCandless in Allegheny County and has worked across nearly every aspect of local government. Today, he continues to mentor leaders and support municipalities through consulting and executive search work. Michael Foreman brings over 30 years of experience with the Pennsylvania Department of Community and Economic Development, where he advised municipalities on policy, finance, and operations. He now continues that work as a consultant supporting local governments across the region. Be sure to follow PCC Local Time on your favorite player and subscribe to MuniSquare.Substack.com for more in-depth content on local government. 🎧 Episode Timestamps00:00 – Opening: Why this story matters Nancy frames the rarity of structural change in local government and introduces Millcreek as a “third attempt” story with real stakes. 01:30 – Guest introductions Jerry Andree, Toby Cordek, and Michael Foreman are introduced with their backgrounds and roles. 03:00 – What makes Millcreek different Three-member board of supervisors acting as full-time administrators—an unusual structure for a township of this size. 05:30 – The core problem emerges Lack of professional management; solicitor acting as de facto manager; growing complexity of the township. 07:45 – Why residents pushed for change Blended roles (legislative, executive, administrative) and growing disconnect between governance and community expectations. 09:00 – Public access and transparency issues Meeting times and structure raise questions about accessibility and responsiveness to residents. 10:30 – Clarifying the real issue Not about removing elected officials—but clarifying roles and introducing professional management. 12:00 – How a study commission works Michael walks through the legal process: ballot question, election, structure, and responsibilities. 15:00 – Inside the research process Interviews with department heads, supervisors, and comparisons with other townships. 17:00 – Why council-manager emerged as the best fit Separation of powers, stability, and professional administration. 19:00 – What the interviews revealed Lack of continuity, shifting oversight, and absence of administrative expertise. 21:00 – A “vacuum of continuity” Toby reflects on what was felt inside the organization—competence present, but no administrative anchor. 22:30 – Resistance from leadership Supervisors not supportive; difficult environment for employees and interviews. 23:30 – The decision point: vote for change Study commission evaluates options and moves toward a council-manager model. 27:00 – Voter approval and timeline to 2028 Final report, public hearing, and decisive vote; transition period begins. 28:00 – The “secret sauce” begins Shift from structure to human dynamics—how the commission actually worked together. 29:00 – Building trust and momentum Early meetings, “symbiosis,” and a nurturing leadership approach. 31:00 – Organizing the commission like a governing body Committees form; members begin practicing how a council operates. 32:30 – Facing attacks and staying grounded Public criticism, accusations, and the discipline to “keep the high ground.” 34:30 – Who were the commission members? Diverse, accomplished residents who largely didn’t know each other before serving. 36:30 – What made the group effective Patience, empathy, discipline—and a shared commitment to the community. 37:00 – Understanding resistance Cultural, political, and financial incentives behind opposition to change. 39:30 – The work is not finished Transition phase begins; questions about hiring a professional manager. 40:30 – The transition challenge No formal roadmap after the vote; need for a transition committee and continued leadership. 42:00 – Administrative code and control Who shapes the new system—and whether it enables or constrains the manager role. 45:00 – “Poison pills” to watch for Risks in implementation: micromanagement, weak role definition, hiring decisions. 47:00 – Signs of early progress Evening meetings added; continued civic engagement by commission members. 48:30 – One chance to get it right Importance of early leadership and governance alignment. 49:00 – The first manager will be tested Discussion of political pressure, expectations, and leadership resilience. 50:30 – What kind of leader is needed? Experience, toughness, and ability to navigate conflict and culture change. 52:00 – Community support for change Strong voter backing and desire for professional leadership. 53:00 – Closing reflections “You only get one opportunity to do it right.” 54:00 – Final thoughts: democracy in action Guests reflect on the meaning of the process and community engagement.

Maggie Dobbs is a trained city planner (Rutgers) who spent a decade writing comprehensive plans across Montgomery County before stepping into her current role as Borough Manager of Narberth, Pennsylvania, a half-square-mile community tucked inside Lower Merion Township just outside of Philadelphia. She arrived after a period of leadership turnover. What she found was not a small job. It was a dense one. Host Brandon Ford and co-host Nancy Hess have a wide ranging conversation with Maggie that moves through the real experience of borough management: the math of running a full municipal government — police, public works, library, eleven miles of road — with fifteen people and a fraction of a township’s budget; the intimacy that makes boroughs special and the same intimacy that makes criticism land close to the heart; and the reality that wearing every hat in the building demands more knowledge, not less, than specializing in a larger organization. Maggie is candid about walking into a community that had cycled through five managers in four years, what it took to steady that ship, and why her focus is on building standard operating procedures so the day-to-day can run itself. Along the way, the crew explores Narberth’s housing story — how a historically working-class rail town became the highest median sales price in Montgomery County — and what that shift means for a community once referred to as “Mayberry,” still sorting out who it is. MuniSquare is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. “My job gets in the way of me doing my job.”— Maggie Dobbs — on the borough manager’s capacity problem“Your hats are wearing hats. It’s a lot.”— Maggie Dobbs — on generalist demands in a small-staff borough"If I had a campaign slogan, it would be policy and procedure. My big push has been standard operating procedures. I want to think less about the day-to-day. I want the day-to-day to essentially run itself because we've already figured it out. I don't want to have to answer questions I've answered again." — Maggie Dobbs, on her first-year management strategy🔥 Hot TakesFive Realities Before You Take the Seat Your job will crowd out your job. Protect space for strategic work.SOPs are not paperwork. They are oxygen.Fill your blind spots early. Pride is expensive.Proactive information reduces political friction.Borough leadership is not smaller. It’s closer. Timestamps0:00 – Introducing Maggie and Narberth 1:18 – The “donut hole” geography inside Lower Merion 2:09 – Maggie’s path: NJ Dept. of Agriculture → Rutgers → Planning 3:30 – Montgomery County Planning Commission & contract planning model 5:49 – Writing four comprehensive plans; interviewing hundreds 8:12 – Planners as connectors in local government 9:36 – Being tapped for the manager role 10:01 – First-year lessons; “90% of the day is listening” 12:36 – Compliance vs. innovation — the Venn diagram problem 13:20 – Shared services with Lower Merion 17:45 – Joint traffic study collaboration 21:29 – Pennsylvania’s “nugget” borough system 24:02 – Borough vs. township — professional fit 27:08 – Narberth staffing reality (4 admin, 6 police, 5 public works) 30:00 – Affordable housing question 31:05 – Narberth’s housing transformation 36:10 – Generalist vs. specialist municipal structures 40:47 – SOPs, website overhaul, proactive communication 42:00 – Five managers in four years — rebuilding trust 44:34 – The lunch that changed her mind 49:57 – Finance gaps & building a support network 52:27 – Who thrives in borough leadership? 54:31 – Closing reflections

There is a polite fiction in local government that serving “at the pleasure of the governing body” rests securely on mutual trust. Often it does. Increasingly, it can feel more fragile. In today’s political climate, the employment relationship between elected officials and their chief administrative officer deserves a closer examination. What protections actually exist? Who advocates for the manager when circumstances shift? In this episode of Generation on the Rise, Eden Ratliff and Dave Pribulka sit down with Brad Gotshall to explore what it means to become, in his words, a “free agent.” They examine contracts and severance, and they also confront questions of reputation, professional identity, and the personal weight of transitions that can be political, strategic, or simply inevitable. MuniSquare is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support our work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. ⏱️ Timestamps00:00 – Cold open, book banter, introductions04:30 – Brad’s background: elected official at 17 to professional manager09:30 – Transition to Warren County and “free agency”11:30 – Protecting yourself as a manager: personal and professional buckets13:30 – Contract negotiations: learning the hard way16:00 – Do managers need representation?19:00 – The loneliness of severance negotiations22:00 – Lower Paxton: no contract, negotiated exit26:00 – Recruiter’s role in negotiations31:00 – Severance pushback and board dynamics37:00 – Creative contract structures (Rehoboth example)39:30 – Should managers use agents?41:30 – Legal review vs. negotiation support43:00 – Preserving reputation under NDAs45:30 – Building a personal brand before crisis hits48:00 – No-fault divorce vs. political dismissal50:00 – Wrap-up and Part Two teaser

Eden and Dave are joined by guest Jeffrey Stonehill, Borough Manager of Chambersburg Pennsylvania. They begin with an examination of how crises today differ from those Jeffrey encountered when he began in the field. Although they traverse the doom and gloom of dealing with crisis in the profession, they return to the core reasons they remain in the field. Contrasting generational perspectives and recognition of the vulnerability that comes with commitment and transitions make this episode a memorable one. Subscribe to MuniSquare on Substack for more content like this. “If everything is a crisis, nothing is.” - EdenYou have to have a little bit of self-confidence. I will find the place, I will find the role, I will find the journey. It's like the actor—the Broadway play closes, what do they do the next day? You need to have confidence that it will work itself out. - Jeffrey"There is a lightness of being after you're gone that almost hits as you're walking out the door. That's when I realized how much pressure I'd been under. That feeling is quickly replaced by this feeling of not being a part of something bigger than yourself anymore. When that ends, especially if it ends abruptly, it's a hard realization to wake up one morning and your calendar is empty." - Dave Hot Takes:🔥Crisis has always been part of the job. The pressure isn’t new — the speed is. 🔥Not every issue deserves full emotional escalation. 🔥Fire Suppression ≠ Fire Prevention. Be proactive. 🔥 The communities you serve will continue without you—and that's okay. 🔥Leaving a community requires a grieving process, even when it's your choice to leave. 🔥The work is meaningful. Despite the pressure, leaders would not trade the experience. Timestamps00:00 - Cold open and greetings 03:47 - Welcome and introduction to Generation on the Rise 04:42 - Introducing first-time guest Jeffrey Stonehill 06:32 - Jeffrey’s career journey: From SUNY grad to 40-year manager 08:15 - The “crisis as normal” phenomenon in local government 11:45 - Why municipalities attract constant crisis 15:20 - The evolution of pressure: Then vs. now 19:30 - Harrisburg bankruptcy and advisory board experience 24:10 - The psychological toll of perpetual emergency management 28:45 - Learning to disconnect (or trying to) 33:20 - The loneliness of municipal management 37:50 - Why managers struggle to share burdens 42:15 - Transitioning between communities: The Disney tradition 45:40 - The grieving process when you leave a community 49:18 - Taking care of yourself and your family 50:05 - Despite everything: Why we love this profession 52:03 - Closing thoughts and next week’s preview

Hey listeners, if you like video with your podcast, check out this episode on Spotify with the video feed included. Don't forget to hit the follow button. And subscribe to MuniSQuare where you will find more on the Pioneering Change Community channel. "We are all one elected official away from a hostile work environment.” - Dave “Yeah, but if it gets that bad, why would you stay?" - Eden Today on Generation on the Rise, what starts as tactical shop talk evolves into a revealing examination of professional isolation, with Dave pushing hard on systemic advocacy gaps while Eden counters with self-reliance pragmatism. By the end, they’re debating whether the profession’s recruitment crisis stems from lack of awareness or legitimate wariness about the job’s inherent instability. “Labor relations are high risk, high reward. When it goes bad, it goes bad fast.” - Brandon Hot Takes:Generational dynamics within unions have shifted bargaining leverage.Don’t wait until negotiation year to build trust.Personnel management is on-the-job training, no matter your preparation.Managers lack advocacy structures..Geographic mobility is a professional survival skill, not a character flaw.The profession needs better advocacy and mentorship structures. Timestamps00:00 – Sustainability banter, ICMA programs03:00 – Topic launch: manager’s role in HR04:30 – Why personnel issues are hardest to prepare for06:00 – HR professionals vs textbook training08:30 – Generational workforce dynamics10:00 – Labor relations as high-risk / high-reward12:00 – Collective bargaining philosophy differences18:00 – “Sacrificing the unborn” and pension negotiations22:00 – Relationship building with unions outside negotiation years29:00 – Transparency and negotiating in public33:00 – The manager as an employee: who advocates for us?38:00 – Hostile work environment discussion44:00 – The limits of formal support structures50:00 – Informal networks and senior advisors53:00 – ICMA’s role: management vs manager debate55:00 – Closing reflections on the realities of the profession