Advertise on podcast: Always Be Testing

Rob Pinkerton is the CMO of Seismic, an AI-powered sales enablement platform, and previously served as CMO of Morningstar and SVP at Oracle, with earlier time at Adobe. He holds a JD and an MBA, and he began his career in politics, which he credits as some of the best training for a CMO. Known as a “positive contrarian” on AI, he calls himself a proud member of Team Human and sees AI as simply software that helps people do work they couldn’t do before. In this episode of Always Be Testing, hosted by Tye DeGrange, he explains why AI is forcing marketing and sales to merge. Buyers now use AI tools at every stage of the funnel and want to talk to a real person sooner, which makes sales the “validation channel” that all other marketing has to support. He urges marketers to stop chasing clicks and MQLs and to focus on moving qualified opportunities forward alongside sellers, who he says are eager to have their marketers back. He is skeptical of metrics built on social proof, since AI can fake them. He suggests inverting your numbers, so that a 3% conversion rate becomes a 97% failure rate worth investigating, and he argues that marketers should know the actual person they are targeting, not a persona or ICP. The conversation also covers why authenticity and source of origin are becoming the scarcest resources online, why self-service can lead to buyer’s regret when AI agents read outdated websites, and why the CMO role is still immature and should evolve into a general manager role across the company. Rob closes with how real partnerships build brand trust and pipeline, and why political skill and “sharp elbows” matter for marketing leaders.

In this episode of Always the Testing Podcast, host Tye DeGrange talks shop with Dave Yovanno, CEO of impact.com, a partner marketing platform serving about 6,000 brands, including Walmart, Target and 60 banks. The platform has visibility into about $1T in GMV, roughly $200B of it partner-referred. Dave grew up in a blue-collar family in Cleveland and joined the Navy to pay for college. He later helped ValueClick acquire early affiliate networks BeFree and Commission Junction, then became impact.com’s CEO in 2017, when it had about 200 employees. Together, Tye and Dave discuss why Dave advises choosing your next opportunity by who you’ll work with first and what second, and how partnerships have moved from the “sand between the rocks” to a main course. They explore why buyers now trust creators and reviewers over brand messaging, and why brands must let trusted partners carry their story. Dave also explains why he sees AI as a tailwind: as search shifts to an “answer era,” LLMs cite creators and publishers rather than brand copy, and brands can use GEO tools like Evertune to find and activate the partners AI already cites. He previews the product roadmap, including creator storefronts, Meta amplification, measurement beyond last click, and a seller program opening Walmart’s 100,000+ seller brands to partnerships. The conversation closes with how the Navy shaped his leadership, from attention to detail to respect for structure and the ability to relate to all types of people.

Tye DeGrange talks with Peep Laja, CEO of Wynter (a B2B market research platform with 12 to 48 hour turnaround on real-human surveys) and a leading voice in SaaS messaging and testing. They unpack why 65% of SaaS messaging is identical across competitors, the four layers of a message that wins (clarity, relevance, value, differentiation), and why a strong offer has to come before any spend on distribution. They also cover why human research still beats synthetic AI, how AI agents may soon close $20K+ B2B deals, and why storytelling and humanness are the best defense against AI slop.

Sunil Kaki, Founder & CEO of Clove Growth, joins Tye DeGrange to trace the career blueprint that took him from a CJ call center to Fortune 500 CMO roles. They dig into brand vs. performance marketing, why chasing every new channel kills growth, CAC/LTV discipline, optimizing the first-user experience, the affiliate marketing philosophy that actually works, building trust with your CFO, and where AI agents fit into modern marketing. Connect with Sunil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunilkaki/ #AlwaysBeTesting #PerformanceMarketing #Marketing

Mike Mallazzo, GM at Alephic Media, joins Tye DeGrange to unpack the next arbitrage window: marketing to LLMs and AI search engines. They cover AEO and GEO strategy, how brands get cited by ChatGPT and other AI assistants, the emerging opportunity in AI-driven ad arbitrage, why partner and affiliate marketing are becoming core to AI search strategy, and why traditional attribution models (MMM/MTA) are losing their grip. #AlwaysBeTesting #AEO #GEO #AISearch

Katerine Tamargo, Head of AI at CJ (Commission Junction), joins Tye DeGrange to unpack one of the most surprising findings in generative engine optimization: more than 83% of AI citations point to third-party sources, not brand-owned content. They dig into the KPIs that actually define AI visibility — mention rate, sentiment, position, and citations — and why a rigorous test-and-learn methodology beats chasing tactics. Katerine also busts a few of the biggest myths circulating about GEO and agentic AI, and explains how publisher compensation models are evolving as AI reshapes the path to purchase. What you'll learn:• Why third-party content — not brand-owned pages — wins the majority of AI citations• The KPIs that define AI visibility: mentions, sentiment, position, and citations• How to build a real test-and-learn framework for GEO instead of guessing• Why the old "owned media" playbook doesn't translate to AI search• How publisher compensation is shifting as AI answers replace clicks• Common myths about GEO and agentic AI, debunked

Michelle Eatherton, Chief Business Officer at Liminal, shares how she convinced her co-founder to build the company partner-led from the very first call, before there was even a product. She and Tye dig into why mid-market enterprises are the underserved sweet spot for AI governance tools, and what it really takes to earn a hyperscaler co-sell relationship.

Jordan Bentley, founder of Audio Hook, explains how he built a performance-based podcast advertising model where brands only pay for real outcomes, not impressions. He and Tye talk about why AI made ad production easier (not the strategy), and why geo-based incrementality testing beats promo codes for proving what's actually working.

Michael Gants, founder and CEO of Encore, breaks down how apps can turn unused "streak" and celebration screens into a new revenue stream, without a single ad or paywall. He shares how brands like Disney, Uber, and Apple are paying to reach users in their happiest moments, and why founders should be more afraid of a broken CAC/LTV ratio than of running a monetization experiment.

Brook Schaaf, co-founder of FMTC and author of the new book Affiliate Hypotheses, joins Tye to make the case that affiliate marketing might be the internet's best — and sometimes only — way to monetize the open web. They dig into why walled gardens like Google and Meta get outsized credit for conversions, and why AI search is putting the open web's survival at risk.

Vikram Chalana, CEO and founder of Pictory, joins the show to unpack how his AI video platform went from 50 customers to 5,000 in just 60 days — and why the breakthrough came from changing the market, not the product. He digs into Pictory's State of Video report (AI adoption has no Silicon Valley bias — Florida and Indiana are leading users), the design principles that keep Pictory out of the "timeline" trap of tools like Premiere, and what's next: code-generated, interactive video that could reinvent how content gets made and consumed.

Remy's Danielle Sakher explains how her team balances speed with observability and security as AI coding tools move from novelty to enterprise infrastructure. She shares what it's really like selling an AI builder to security-conscious industries like financial services, plus a wild stat: alpha users have already spent $300K in AI compute.

Darryl Yearwood, who leads partnerships at Apollo, makes the case that a smaller, higher-quality partner roster beats chasing volume every time. He and Tye get into what "not plug-and-play" really means in affiliate marketing and how to build partnerships that actually move revenue.

Avishag Daniely built One Layer's entire marketing and partnerships function from scratch — coming from a background in IDF cyber intelligence. She shares how her military analytical training shaped her approach to B2B GTM, what it takes to build pipeline when no one's heard of your company yet, and why she treats every marketing decision like an intelligence problem.

Affiliate fraud investigator Ben Edelman joins Tye for an emergency episode breaking down the "Phia fiasco" that's rattling the affiliate marketing industry. Edelman, who's spent over 20 years catching affiliate fraud and has collaborated with Tye on forensic cases throughout his career, walks through what makes this case different from the usual stand-down violations that have hit shopping plugins like Honey and Microsoft Edge in the past.