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In Marcus' final episode as co-host of In the Meanwhile, he and Nora turn the microphones on each other to ask what this strange, joyful experiment has taught them about surviving a slow-motion apocalypse. They reflect on the conversations that changed them, the power of community, the everyday work of making change, and why joy is something worth collecting even in the bleakest times. It's a bittersweet farewell, a love letter to the people who carried the show, and a reminder that whatever comes next, we survive the meanwhile together. Mentioned in the episode:  Marcus is leaving journalism, but he'll never stop fighting for the south end | More about Marcus | Ad Astra | Ella Baker: Strong people don't need strong leaders | Camp Laurel's final Family Camp |  Related Episodes: Minneapolis Solidarity | Father Ray Riding | Peter Beinart | Loretta J. Ross | Ijeoma Oluo | Dean Spade (2025) | Dean Spade (2026) | Sen. Chris Murphy | Sen. Pramila Jayapal | Warm Cookies of the Revolution | Mark Paschal | The Impossible will Take a little while |  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

Across the country, everyday people are fighting some of the most powerful AI companies on earth — and winning. But the untold story of data center resistance is that it's not just tech-NIMBYism, but a civil rights and environmental justice fight led by Black and Brown communities. This week, Nora (flying solo while Marcus is out) sits down with Abre' Connor, Director of the Center for Environmental and Climate Justice at the NAACP, to talk about the fast-growing movement against AI data centers. They dig into why this fight is following a painfully familiar playbook of environmental racism, what it took to sue Elon Musk's xAI over unpermitted gas turbines in Southaven, Mississippi, and what Gary, Indiana's weeks-long power outage really tells us about who bears the cost of the AI boom. It's a conversation about what's possible when communities refuse to be told they're disposable — and build the power to prove it. Mentioned in the episode:  Robert Reich Explainer on Data Centers | AOC presses EPA administrator on water and data centers | PBS Overview on Data Centers | US Data Center Moratorium Tracker | Trump: Communities that reject data centers will end up 'backwards and poor' | Data Centers could be the winning issue for democrats | NAACP | How the NAACP Is Stopping Dirty Data | Earthjustice | Gary Indiana power failures | east coast data center accused of violating federal law Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

Today, In the Meanwhile is taking a much-needed breather and sharing the final three episodes of Facing It with Dr. Jennifer Atkinson, a podcast about climate grief, eco-anxiety, and the deeply inconvenient reality of being a human being on a planet in crisis. Because knowing the world is on fire doesn't automatically tell us how to live in it. How do we face grief without surrendering to despair? How do we stay engaged without burning ourselves out? And how might actually feeling the enormity of what we're losing become the first step toward fighting for what remains? Mentioned in the episode:  Facing It | The Existential Toolkit for the Climate Crisis: How to Teach in a Burning World | Gardenland: Nature, Fantasy and Everyday Practice  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

Today, In the Meanwhile is taking a much-needed breather. But we're not leaving you alone with the slow-motion apocalypse. Nora and Marcus are still here to open and close the show, and in between, we're sharing three episodes of Facing It with Dr. Jennifer Atkinson, a podcast about climate grief, eco-anxiety, and the deeply inconvenient reality of being a human being on a planet in crisis. Because knowing the world is on fire doesn't automatically tell us how to live in it. How do we face grief without surrendering to despair? How do we stay engaged without burning ourselves out? And how might actually feeling the enormity of what we're losing become the first step toward fighting for what remains? Mentioned in the episode:  Facing It | The Existential Toolkit for the Climate Crisis: How to Teach in a Burning World | Gardenland: Nature, Fantasy and Everyday Practice | Dungeon Crawler Carl | Seattle Public Library Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if democracy involved fewer town halls, and more dance parties? What if our civic engagement also brought us snacks, new friends, and creative joy? This week, Nora and Marcus speak with Evan Weissman, founder of Denver's Warm Cookies of the Revolution, about his wonderfully unhinged experiment in making civic life actually enjoyable. Think Tax Day carnivals, lucha libre, Hot Wheels-powered participatory budgeting, and the radical proposition that regular people should have some actual power over the places where they live. It's a conversation about joy as political fuel, why being right isn't the same as winning, and what happens when building a better world starts feeling less like mandatory homework and more like somewhere you'd actually want to be. Mentioned in the episode:  Arturo Béjar and Trials against Meta | Zuck's boat not responding to an SOS | USS Abraham Lincoln | Death of Jason Arday | Vigil for Jason Arday | Claudine Gay | Warm Cookies of the Revolution | Librarians hosting how to resist AI workshops | Furious (TV Series) |  Related Episodes: Laura Marquez-Garrett | Sen. Chris Murphy Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

America is lonely, angry, unequal, and increasingly wondering whether democracy is still working or just buffering indefinitely. This week on In The Meanwhile, Nora and Marcus sit down with U.S. Senator Chris Murphy to discuss his new book, Crisis of the Common Good, and his argument that beneath our political dysfunction is something even harder to filibuster away: a crisis of belonging, meaning, and human connection. We get into loneliness, capitalism, higher education, AI, faith, family, political tribalism, and the apparently radical proposition that billionaires maybe shouldn't get to purchase democracy wholesale. It's a conversation about what politics can fix, what it can't, and whether we can build a new social contract before the old one completely rage-quits. Mentioned in the episode:  Crisis of the Common Good | Orcas at the Ballard Locks! | Trump's School Sports Day | LES Tenement Museum Related Episodes: Gina Baskin | Julie-C | Dean Spade Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

In 2020, CHOP became one of the most debated protest movements in modern American history. Six years later, as calls for more policing and tougher public safety policies grow louder, artist, educator, and community organizer Julie-C joins the podcast to reflect on what that moment actually was and what lessons have been lost. Julie explores the myths that still surround CHOP, the rise of movement amnesia, the importance of relationships over rhetoric, and why investing in young people, artists, and community remains the strongest path toward real safety. It's a thoughtful conversation about organizing, conflict, creativity, and what it takes to keep building toward liberation when history feels like it's moving in reverse. Mentioned in the episode:  On the Block | Black Coffee Co-Op | Read about Hidmo in Charles Mudede's piece honoring Rahwa Habte | Embedded S27: We Keep Us Safe | Erotics of Liberation | Gregg Gonsalves in the Nation |   Support Julie-C's work: On the Block Related Episodes: Loretta J Ross | Emily M. Bender Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

The world feels like it's on fire. So what do we do besides doomscroll? This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with author and activist Paul Loeb to talk about his updated classic, The Impossible Will Take a Little While. In the wake of the Seattle Center shooting, and in the middle of authoritarian creep, climate chaos, and collective exhaustion, Loeb makes the case that hope isn't wishful thinking. It's a practice. A discipline. A choice to act anyway. From South Africa to South Korea, from political prisoners to everyday organizers, this conversation is a reminder that history has always been changed by ordinary people who refused to accept that the future was already written. If you're looking for a reason to keep fighting without losing your joy, this episode is for you. Mentioned in the episode:  Marcus's Column | Renee Hopkins episode | Alliance for Gun Responsibility | The Impossible Will Take a Little While, by Paul Loeb | Archbishop Desmond Tutu | Wendell Berry: The Peace of Wild Things | Minnesota Proved MAGA Wrong | How the Word is Passed, by Clint Smith | MLK: Letter from a Birmingham Jail | theimpossible.org | Schmitz Park | Missouri ends felon disenfranchisement |  Follow Paul Loeb: https://paulloeb.substack.com/ | theimpossible.org  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if the same government that can find billions for a war in a matter of months insists there's never enough money to feed a hungry kid or keep a school library stocked? Marcus and Nora sit down with Jesse Hagopian — Seattle educator, Rethinking Schools editor, and author of Teach Truth: The Struggle for Antiracist Education — to follow the money from the Pentagon to the classroom. Jesse traces the fight against book bans and "anti-CRT" laws sweeping the country, and grounds it in his own history: teaching in an underfunded DC classroom, then at his alma mater, Garfield High, where keeping snacks in a desk drawer became part of the job. He connects Seattle's fight for universal school meals to the legacy of the Black Panther Party's Free Breakfast for Children Program, and James Baldwin's claim that "the children are all ours." On the heels of an all-too-tough fight for school meals in one of the wealthiest cities in the world, Hagopian shows us that "there's no money" has always been a ruse, not a fact.  In the middle of recording this episode, Seattle's fight for universal school meals actually won. Jesse walks through how that happened: years of students, parents, and teachers showing up, organizing, and refusing to accept austerity as the final word. It's a blueprint for hope in tough times.  Mentioned in the episode:  Guest Rant: Seattle Can't Afford Not to Feed Every Child | Teach Truth: The Struggle for Antiracist Education | July 21 City Council Meeting |  More from Jesse Hagopian: https://iamaneducator.com/  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What if we've been asking the wrong question all along? Instead of waiting for institutions that are failing us to finally come to the rescue, what if our real survival has always depended on each other? This week, Dean Spade returns to the podcast to join Nora and Marcus for a timely conversation about the newly updated edition of Mutual Aid. Together they unpack why mutual aid isn't charity but a practice of solidarity, resistance, and collective power with a long and radical history.  From authoritarianism and democratic backsliding to climate disruption and collapsing public institutions, Spade argues that the way through this moment isn't individual resilience or hoping for our institutions to save us, but communities learning to organize, care for one another, and build the relationships that make a different future possible. If you've been wondering what hope looks like in hard times, this conversation offers something more powerful: a roadmap for action. Mentioned in the episode:  ICE Murders | Detention Center Deaths | Mutual Aid | Love in a F*cked Up World [book] and [podcast] | Five Questions for Cultivating Solidarity | In Defense of Looting  | Tiny Gardens Everywhere | Death Panel Podcast | Love in a F****d up World: Resentment | An Unquiet Mind | 2025 Andrew Carnegie Fellow: Nora Kenworthy Follow and Support Dean's work: Dean Spade - Patreon Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Iranian American democracy advocate Nilu Jenks for a deeply personal conversation about war, diaspora grief, authoritarianism, and the deadly lie of "liberation" through violence. Drawing from her family's lived experience in Iran and her work for more representative democracy here in the U.S., Jenks brings clarity, grief, and fierce moral vision to a moment shaped by propaganda, profound uncertainty, and the human cost of minority rule. It's a moving, unflinching conversation about pain, memory, resistance, and what solidarity, accountability, and freedom demand, both abroad and at home. The interview in this episode first aired in March 2026. Mentioned in the episode:  The Skepchic Rebecca Watson on Graham Platner | FIEL Houston | Nilu Jenks | Ten steps towards fascism | Rumi | Seattle's 1st homicide-free month since 1970 | Bloomberg: The Fun Shortage is Real |  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

What does it mean to celebrate America at 250 if we've never been honest about the story we've been telling ourselves?   This week, Nora and Marcus sit down with Eddie Glaude Jr. for a conversation that's equal parts history lesson, therapy session, and reality check. Drawing from his new book, America, U.S.A.: How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries, Glaude argues that America's biggest problem isn't that we don't know our history. It's that we're deeply invested in the fairy tale version of it. Together they explore why Glaude won't say he loves America, why he refuses to give up on it, what Frederick Douglass still demands of us 250 years after the nation's founding, and why growing up as a country means letting go of comforting myths. Along the way, they wrestle with grief, patriotism, memory, James Baldwin, Juneteenth, raising children in uncertain times, and the difference between loving a nation and loving its people. One of the most vulnerable conversations we've had on In the Meanwhile, it's less an interview than an invitation to confront the stories we've inherited and decide whether we're finally ready to write a more honest one. Mentioned in the episode:  SCOTUS: Birthright Citizenship * Campaign Finance * Trans Athletes in Schools | The Atlantic: Trump's 250th is a FIasco | Melania the cow | Civic Bravery at Georgia Pride | Civic Bravery episode | Fruity Farm Tennessee | White House considering issuing 250 pardons | DHS tracked down Pagelynn Gonlea | Prairieland Sentencing | America, U.S.A.: How Race Shadows the Nation's Anniversaries | Begin Again: James Baldwin's America and Its Urgent Lessons for Our Own | Randall Robinson Quitting America | Hannah Arendt | James Baldwin | Joel Thompson | East Coker by T.S. Eliot | Buffet pausing giving to Gates |  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week Nora and Marcus speak with Congresswoman Pramila Jayapal about what Democrats keep getting wrong, why "moderation" so often means surrendering before the fight starts, and whether the left might finally be done asking permission to act like it has a spine. We talk Medicare for All, immigration, trans rights, the Epstein files, and the political class's ongoing refusal to understand that people would, in fact, like to afford housing and remain in possession of their civil rights. Jayapal makes the case for a Democratic Party that actually delivers, a politics rooted in moral clarity rather than consultant leftovers, and a version of hope that feels less Hallmark card, more organized resistance. Mentioned in the episode:  Leftward wave in Democratic primaries! | 21st Century Road to Housing vs. Save America Acts | NYT Siena poll about Dems & socialism | Seattle Pride | Seattle broke two public transit records last week | Seattle's waterfront park Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

This week on In the Meanwhile,  while billionaires flirt with trillionaire status, ICE detention centers face hunger strikes, and America's political class continues its speedrun through late-stage empire, we sit down with someone doing something radically unfashionable: caring about people. Father Ray Riding is a 76-year-old Catholic missionary who has spent the last two years accompanying migrants along the U.S.-Mexico border. From leaving water in the desert to visiting detention centers and supporting families facing deportation, Father Ray bears witness to the human stories too often reduced to political talking points. In a conversation about cruelty, faith, solidarity, and hope, he shares what he has seen, why he believes love is stronger than hate, and what it means to stand with people in their darkest moments. It's a moving reminder that behind every immigration debate is a human being whose story deserves to be heard. Mentioned in the episode:  Obama Center Opening Ceremony | Reflecting Pool turning green | New World Screwworm | Delaney Hall Hunger Strike | MN Indictments | $96.7 B contribution to economy by undocumented immigrants | Knicks win! | Kansas marching band plays Algerian national anthem |  More about Father Ray: https://www.thebeliever.net/only-god-will-judge-us/  Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.

It's been another "37-day week" in America, and In The Meanwhile is doing what it does best: refusing to let the chaos set the agenda. On the heels of Bill Gates' Congressional appearance to be questioned about his role in the Epstein Files, we revisit a prescient conversation from March with Tim Schwab, investigative journalist and author of The Bill Gates Problem.  Schwab walks us through the Gates - Epstein connections, and how these implicate not just the two men, but the hyper powerful institutions that burnished their reputations. Schwab reveals the dangerous alchemy of extreme wealth alongside the "good billionaire" mythology. He breaks down why Gates' "I didn't know" era doesn't pass the smell test, how philanthropy can function as reputation-laundering and influence-buying, and why the so-called "Bill Chill" keeps Seattle institutions and media hesitant to speak plainly, even when the story is screaming. Mentioned in the episode:  As Congress probes Gates about Epstein, the Walls Close in | Is Bill Gates in the Epstein files? Probably |  The Epstein files should end Bill Gates's philanthropic career | Erasing Gates Seattle's Favorite Philanthropist Faces Campus Reality Check from UW Student | NYT Opinion: This Summer, Students From Hundreds of Colleges Will Heed One Urgent Call | Half of Americans want to Abolish ICE More from Tim Schwab: Tim Schwab on Substack | On X | on BlueSky | The Bill Gates Problem | on LinkedIn Support the pod: Donate here to support In The Meanwhile Follow us: Instagram | BlueSky | Website Read Nora and Marcus's Books: Crowded Out: The True Costs of Crowdfunding Healthcare | Readying to Rise Music: No Tears for a Wolf · Ahamefule J. Oluo · Okanomodé. Used with permission. Logo by Nikki Barron. Transcripts are machine-generated and imperfect. Nora and Marcus's work on the podcast is separate from their professional roles and does not represent the views of their employers.  Links to bookshop.org are affiliate links.