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“Don't think for a minute that the Torah actually meant money at the beginning. It actually did mean an eye and we changed it because that's what we do. That's what our project is. Our project is upgrading Judaism to fit the needs of Jews today and the world today.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  What if the most important interpretive tool in the Talmud is basically: “Oh, come on”? In this episode, Benay and Dan encounter an argument for taking “an eye for an eye” literally that cuts through layers of textual gymnastics by simply appealing to reality. And that leads them to a surprising possibility: maybe svara isn’t only lofty moral intuition. Sometimes it’s just cultivated common sense. But once you start looking for svara that way, you see it everywhere. It may never announce itself, yet it quietly shapes and evolves the tradition, much like judicial discretion operates inside a legal system. Dan and Benay ask what happens when we stop searching the Torah for hidden meanings and trust something much closer at hand: our capacity to look at the text, look at the world, and say, “Come on. We know better than that.” This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“The Talmud has one message, one and only one message, and it gives it in 14,000 different cases, and that one message is, reader, you are tasked with making the tradition as good as you possibly can, and you are not bound to the Torah in doing that.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  The Talmud wants you to think you’ve figured it out. Then it pulls the rug out from under you. A proof that seemed so convincing suddenly falls apart. An argument you accepted without question turns out to have a hole you should have noticed. And Benay and Dan suspect the frustration is intentional. Because maybe the Talmud isn’t just teaching you how to interpret Torah. It’s training you to hold your truths lightly. In this episode, Dan and Benay continue to explore a text designed to destabilize certainty and form people capable of noticing when the tradition they inherited is no longer working. The goal isn’t endless doubt. It’s something harder: becoming confident enough to act, but flexible enough to realize when you’re wrong, and courageous enough to change. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“The entire Talmud is a response to the bind that we got ourselves into before the rabbis ever existed by claiming that our God writes books. That was the mistake of history. That caused us a lot of problems. To think that God actually writes words down and this document is the word of God was the beginning of the end.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  What if the rabbis were magicians? Not because they possessed supernatural powers, but because they knew how to make radical change look like it had been hiding in the Torah all along. An eye for an eye turns into monetary compensation. The trick works because you’re looking exactly where the magician wants you to look. But Benay and Dan argue that somewhere along the way, Judaism forgot that the magic trick was a magic trick. Techniques designed to transform the tradition whenever it needed transformation became sacred artifacts that later generations believed they were no longer authorized to use. In this episode, Benay and Dan ask whether rediscovering the rabbis’ techniques of transformation might also recover something much more important: our permission to change Judaism again. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ Imagine you're reading some magician textbook, how to do magic… the magician is saying since he transferred the coin from his right hand to his left hand the coin disappeared. But he doesn't actually believe that it disappeared. He's showing you how to make the audience believe it disappeared. If the person reading the handbook thinks the way that you make something disappear is you move it to another hand, the joke is on that person.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  If you have one good argument, you make it. If you don’t have a single good argument, you make ten. That may be exactly what the rabbis are doing with “an eye for an eye.” As each new proof that the Torah really always meant monetary compensation gets weaker, stranger, and more strained, Benay and Dan begin to wonder whether the arguments are actually designed to fail. Because maybe the Talmud isn’t trying to convince us that the Torah always meant money. Maybe it’s trying to make sure we realize that it didn’t. In this episode, we follow the rabbis through some spectacular interpretive gymnastics and uncover a possibility hiding underneath them: sometimes changing the tradition requires admitting that you’re changing it. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“This is a really great text to be learning because it shows that something as clear as day in the Torah doesn't mean what the words purport to mean. That doesn't stop the rabbis from legislating it out of existence and ultimately claiming that they didn't, that it always meant that all along.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  What do you do when your sacred text is clear and you think it’s wrong? In this episode, Benay and Dan return to “an eye for an eye” and discover something more radical than a clever reinterpretation. The rabbis aren’t just changing the law. They’re building an entire toolkit for changing the law, while insisting that the Torah meant the new thing all along. That raises a much bigger question: What if Jewish tradition isn’t ultimately about preserving the Torah’s answers, but preserving its trajectory? Through some ingenious, and sometimes hilariously unconvincing rabbinic arguments, Benay and Dan explore a Judaism that treats sacred text not as the end of the moral conversation, but as the beginning of an ongoing attempt to move, generation after generation, toward greater justice. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“The process that made the eye for an eye a dead letter is exactly the same process that could be used to make the Leviticus against homosexuality a dead letter, and that's what we're called to do because that's the tradition.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  "An eye for an eye" seems perfectly clear, until the rabbis decide it doesn't mean what it says. In this episode, Benay and Dan dive into one of the Talmud's most famous reinterpretations and ask a surprising question: Is the goal to prove that the Torah always meant monetary compensation, or to quietly teach future generations how traditions evolve? As the conversation unfolds, a debate about personal injury becomes a much bigger story about authority, moral intuition, and religious change. Along the way, they explore why the Talmud sometimes buries its boldest ideas beneath layers of argument, what happens when our deepest convictions collide with sacred texts, and why understanding how the rabbis argued may matter even more than the conclusions they reached. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ I'm always asked, 'You're obviously an anti-traditionalist, so why are you going back to the Talmud all the time?' An anti-traditionalist doesn't need an authoritative history. The answer is that the only way to begin to convince traditionalists of an anti-traditionalist option is to show them that there's a long tradition of anti-traditionalists.” - Menachem Fisch Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  Does the Talmud preserve tradition or secretly rewrite it? In this episode, Benay and Dan welcome back professor Menachem Fisch for a conversation that overturns the way many people read one of the Talmud's most famous texts. What looks like a debate about human dignity becomes a masterclass in how the rabbis hid their boldest innovations in plain sight. As the conversation unfolds, the focus shifts from what the Talmud says to how it says it. Why does the text laugh at a crucial moment? Why does it leave certain contradictions unresolved? And what if the Talmud's deepest message isn't a legal ruling at all, but an invitation to question, reinterpret, and even challenge inherited tradition? If you've ever wondered how a religious tradition can evolve without abandoning itself, this conversation is a fascinating place to begin. Menachem Fisch is the Joseph and Ceil Mazer Professor of History and Philosophy of Science Emeritus, and Director of the Center for Religious and Interreligious Studies at Tel Aviv University. He has published many books including Rational Rabbis: Science and Talmudic Culture. This week’s text: Berakhot 19b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ When people say, ‘What makes something Jewish?’ A lot of times you're looking for some substantive answer to that, emphasizing the value of tikkun olam or whatever it might be. But no, what makes it Jewish is that it has been part of this process of changing and remixing, that's the essence of Judaism.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  Breaking someone's arm is easy to see. Breaking their future is harder to evaluate. This episode opens with an ancient legal question about damages, but the rabbis refuse to reduce injury to bones and bruises. They ask about pain. Lost wages. Medical bills. Humiliation. Even the emotional cost of being hurt. Suddenly, what looks like a legal code starts to read like a blueprint for taking human suffering seriously. Then the conversation takes an unexpected turn. Benay and Dan discover that responsibility doesn't necessarily end with the wounding and physical recovery—it can continue as long as its consequences endure. Along the way, we uncover surprising connections between ancient tort law and modern debates about trauma, reparations, emotional harm, and justice itself. This isn't just an episode about what we owe someone after causing harm. It's about how far our responsibility to one another really reaches. This week’s text: Bava Kamma 83b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“[The Rabbis] show us, and texts from antiquity across the board show us,  that any silly political insistence that there are only two sexes and there always have been, is just straight up nonsense. They attest to more than two genders. And yet, we repeat it so often that they inherit a binary system from the Bible and then scholars writing about gender have projected our assumptions about their binaries on the text.” - Gwynn Kessler Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  The Torah says one thing. Life keeps saying something more complicated. This conversation turns one of Judaism's oldest texts into a living laboratory, asking whether every generation has the responsibility to expand inherited tradition when it no longer reflects the world as we know it. The result is a conversation that challenges not only how we read the Talmud, but why we read it at all. We have a guest today – Gwynn Kessler, a professor of religion at Swarthmore College. Together with her, we explore gender, power, interpretation, and the surprising ways ancient rabbis wrestled with a changing world. Along the way, we ask a bigger question that reaches far beyond Judaism: Is faithfulness about preserving the past exactly as we received it—or having the courage to tell a truer story today? Gwynn Kessler’s research focuses on rabbinic interpretation of Scripture—or midrash—and more specifically on rabbinic theology and rabbinic constructions of gender and identity. Her book Conceiving Israel: The Fetus in Rabbinic Narratives explores rabbinic traditions regarding the fetus for the purpose of examining rabbinic constructions of gender, ethnicity, and theology. Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“  Even if you accept that we are nothing compared to Moses, nevertheless, we're sitting on the shoulders of Moses and everyone who sat on his shoulders. So we're actually having a higher perspective, even though we're smaller ourselves. That's an argument that accepts the concept of each generation being less impressive than the previous one but nevertheless, they can overturn things because they just see farther.” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  The most radical thing about the Talmud is its method and not its conclusions. This episode asks whether these ancient arguments are really about arriving at the right answer, or about handing the next generation the tools to challenge, reinterpret, and even overturn the traditions they inherit. Beneath a dense legal discussion lies a startling invitation: learn how the game is played, because one day you'll be the one changing it. From human dignity and legal loopholes to the Supreme Court and Neil Gorsuch, Benay and Dan explore how lasting change often comes by mastering the language of tradition rather than rejecting it. If you want to know how communities evolve without abandoning their foundations, this conversation offers a compelling—and surprisingly practical—answer. This week’s text: Berakhot 19b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ I'm really starting to land somewhere for me with this text. I think this is an instruction manual for how to apply that very radical and broad directive of prioritizing human dignity over the precise following of the Torah when they conflict.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  What if one of Judaism's most revolutionary teachings wasn't rejected, but deliberately buried? Deep inside the Talmud sits a breathtaking claim: human dignity overrides the Torah. And then, almost immediately, the rabbis begin qualifying it, narrowing it, and surrounding it with exceptions. The question is no longer whether the principle exists. The question is why the tradition seems so nervous about it. In this episode, we explore whether the Talmud is suppressing a dangerous idea or teaching future generations how to handle it responsibly. Is human dignity the hidden center of the Jewish way, tucked carefully beneath layers of argument? Or is the real lesson that even our most beautiful principles require wisdom, restraint, and judgment? By the end, our conversation moves from ancient legal debates to a question every tradition must face: when do we follow the rule, and when do we need to remind ourselves what the rule was for? This week’s text: Berakhot 19b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“It is preferable to break, violate a prohibition in the Torah, anything the Torah says don't do, you can actually go ahead and do it if by not doing it you would cause someone significant indignity or disrespect.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  What if the most radical idea in the Talmud has been hiding in plain sight? A tiny legal principle expands into a sweeping claim: human dignity may override the Torah itself. Suddenly the conversation is no longer about funerals, ritual purity, or wool and linen. It's about whether preserving human beings matters more than preserving the rules. But the rabbis seem nervous about their own conclusion. One generation opens the door to a breathtaking vision of dignity, while another works frantically to narrow it, qualify it, and explain it away. We follow an argument from ancient mourning rituals to modern constitutional law, asking whether Judaism's most expansive ideas survive precisely because they were never completely erased. This week’s text: Berakhot 19b Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“That's what Rabbi Yitzchak is saying, once the temple is destroyed, we are all in a state of unhealthy living, and our desires can only be satisfied in forbidden ways.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  The rabbis began with a thought experiment about a lovesick man, which we discussed last week, and they end their analysis with something far stranger: the suggestion that the entire world has been broken ever since the Temple fell. Maybe that man wasn’t sick with love at all. Maybe he’s simply human. His desires are disordered, his longings are misplaced, and his inability to find satisfaction becomes a mirror for everyone else. What starts as a legal argument about one troubled man gradually turns into a meditation on what it means to live after a catastrophe. Along the way, we stumble into questions far beyond sex. What if the rabbis understood themselves to be living after the end of the world? What if our deepest desires are shaped by loss? And what if the work of tradition is not inventing new values, but discovering the old values that were hidden there all along? The conversation moves from forbidden desire to human dignity, from constitutional law to climate change, and from a broken Temple to our own broken age. This week’s text: Sanhedrin 75a Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ The issue here isn't sex. The issue here is objectification. So that can take place in a sexual context, but it can also take place in other contexts. So this potentially gives us the opening to say in a case where you have a disease that you're going to die where the cure would require the treating of another person as an object, that is not permitted. That's a much larger category. ” - Dan Libenson Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  This week’s conversation begins with a lovesick man, a woman he barely knows, and a rabbinic ruling that seems almost impossible to understand. The doctors insist the man will die unless he has the woman. The rabbis refuse. They refuse when sex is proposed. They refuse when the doctors suggest she merely stand before him. They even refuse when all that’s required is a conversation from behind a fence. Again and again, they choose to let him die. What unfolds is far larger than an ancient argument about desire or modesty. We discover a hidden crack inside the rabbinic system itself: a moment that’s in conflict with a principle we thought we had established: saving a life trumps everything. But here, saving a life is not the highest value. The conversation moves from misogyny and objectification to feminism, queer liberation, systemic injustice, and the possibility that every tradition contains the tools needed to remake itself. If the rabbis could add new values to Torah, what values might we be called to add today? This week’s text: Sanhedrin 75a Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.

“ There's no question in my mind that retelling, reshaping the contours of the Jewish story is what you do. That's the most Jewish thing of all Jewish things.” - Benay Lappe Welcome to The Oral Talmud, our weekly deep dive chevruta study partnership, discovering how voices of the Talmud from 1500 years ago can help us rethink Judaism today.  This episode begins with a surprisingly modern question: are we discovering the truth, or are we making it? We begin with myth, storytelling, and the uneasy feeling that every generation reshapes Judaism even while claiming to preserve it. The rabbis may have left us only a few scattered hints, but those hints point toward a dangerous possibility: perhaps the people themselves carry the wisdom needed to guide the future. By the end, our conversation gets to an even more radical place. Hillel forgets the law, the experts lose their certainty, and ordinary Jews become “children of prophets.” The future, the Talmud suggests, does not arrive through leaders protecting the past. It arrives through leaders humble enough to notice what the people are already becoming. In a moment when authority feels fragile and communities are changing faster than institutions can respond, this ancient story asks a startling question: what if the people already know what God wants? This week’s text: Pesachim 66a Find an edited transcript and full show notes (references and further reading) on The Oral Talmud webpage for this episode! Access the Sefaria Source Sheet to explore key Talmud texts and find the original video of our discussion. The Oral Talmud is a co-production of Judaism Unbound and SVARA: A Traditionally Radical Yeshiva. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please help us keep both fabulous Jewish organizations going with a one-time or monthly tax-deductible donation at oraltalmud.com. You can find a donate button on the top right corner of the website.