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In episode 15, Chris and Marni are joined by Molly Herald, a therapist in Asheville, North Carolina, and the owner of Neuroabundant, a clinical education and community space for neurodivergent professionals. Marni and Molly first worked together presenting on PDA at the Stanford Neurodiversity Summit. Molly tells us about being diagnosed ADHD at 17, self-identifying as autistic years later alongside their autistic clients, and finding PDA—the piece that explained what ADHD and autism together still didn’t. Community mental health never worked for them (they never lasted a year anywhere), and like a lot of PDAers, they ended up self-employed because it was the only structure that returned any autonomy. We talk about what happens after the freedom stops feeling intoxicating: breaking up with insurance companies because the documentation demand was making them a worse therapist, the PDA tax that decision carries, and the case for long-term accessibility—burning out on a sliding scale in two years takes away a decade of care you could have provided. We also get into neuroqueering the shape of a business, emails as an accidental forever no, demand avoidance as a messenger, unpretzeling a knot of compounding demands, and constant compassion as a balm you can apply at every layer. Molly’s advice for anyone newly realizing they might be a PDA adult: you’re not broken, you’re different. Mentioned: * Molly’s company, Neuroabundant, has an upcoming retreat to Portugal in November for neurodivergent business builders! * The course on PDA that Molly and Marni developed and presented with their colleagues * Ticket Theory by Hilary Knutson * National Association of Gifted Children conference, held in Milwaukee in November this year, where Chris and Marni will be presenting their work Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 14, Marni and Chris mark the first anniversary of PDA: Resistance and Resilience the PDA way—a little late, and on our own terms. No guest this time, just the two of us reflecting on how our relationship to PDA has shifted over the year. We discuss what it means to hold a label lightly, identifying with PDA without making it the whole basket, and the internalized ableism that surfaces when others question whether the label is worth claiming. We talk about the value of multiple lenses (PDA, giftedness) for understanding the same experiences, and why neither has to win. The conversation moves through our sensitivity to power imbalances and hierarchy: the lifelong discomfort with treating adults as above children, what that meant in school and still means in academia, and how flatter-hierarchy spaces like self-directed learning centers change the experience for everyone. We come back to mentorship and the importance of safe adults in a young PDAer’s life—a thread that runs back to earlier episodes. Chris shares something personal: rediscovering a 40,000-word unpublished book written at 23 and 24, during a period of major disintegration, and what it reveals about PDA, dignity, and the impact of being told: “You don’t have a choice.” Looking back with compassion rather than judgment, Chris reflects on how today’s lenses make sense of what younger Chris couldn’t yet name. We close with a look ahead: more collaborations with PDA North America, our upcoming webinars (Marni on unschooling for PDAers in September; Chris on the theory of positive disintegration for PDAers in December), an upcoming trip to Australia for Chris, Marni’s dissertation on PDA families, and gratitude for a year of remarkable guests and conversations. Links from this episode Kelsie Olds, The Occuplaytional Therapist Kristy Forbes Ep. 10: Voices at the Margins Episodes mentioned by guest: Ep. 4: All About Functioning Labels with Katy Higgins Lee Ep. 5: Living on Our Own Terms with Caitlin Hughes Ep. 6: Traveling with PDA with Becca Campbell Ep. 7: Creative Resistance with Mattia Maurée Ep. 8: Mentoring PDAers with Trust and Curiosity with Amy Clark Ep. 13: The Dirtbag Ethos with Blake Boles Upcoming PDA North America webinars: Homeschooling/Unschooling Your PDA Child with Helen Lowry and Marni Kammersell, September 3, 2026, 7-9 pm CST. Click here to register A Different Mirror: Positive Disintegration & the PDA Experience by Chris Wells, December 10, 2026, 7-8:30 pm CST. Click here to register Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 13, Blake Boles joins Marni and Chris to talk about self-directed living and the search for purpose outside conventional systems. Founder of Unschool Adventures, Blake has spent since 2008 taking teens who don’t go to school on international trips, and has written several books on self-directed learning—most recently Dirtbag Rich: High Freedom, Low Income, Deep Purpose. He reclaims “dirtbag” as a term of endearment for someone so committed to what they love that they refuse to surrender all their time to conventional work, and reframes it around a trifecta of time, money, and purpose. The conversation turns to Blake’s work with neurodivergent teens—many of whom get labeled ADHD, oppositional, or autistic in a classroom but thrive when given autonomy and real responsibility. Blake argues it’s the one-size-fits-all system that manufactures so many of these labels, and makes the case for a thousand small educational experiments rather than one replacement system. The threads of autonomy and freedom run straight through to PDA experience, as Chris and Marni push into gaming as a legitimate social world, meeting kids where they are, and Blake’s defense of calculated risk and the “one-way ticket” as a counterweight to communities built solely around safety. The episode closes on his challenge to the “cult of retirement” and his belief that a life of more time and more purpose is hard to strike but real. Links from this episode: * Blake’s Writing * Dirtbag Rich * Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School? * Blake’s Substack, The Adventures of Blake * “Avoiding the Cult of Retirement” * Dirtbag Rich podcast * Off Trail Learning podcast * Episode with Xander Macswan on Video Games * Blake’s travel company for teens, Unschool Adventures * Not Back to School Camp Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Content note: This episode includes brief discussion of suicidal ideation, mental health crises, school avoidance and truancy proceedings, and harmful behavioral interventions. In episode 12, Marni and Chris are joined by Diane Gould and Melissa McKenzie of PDA North America to talk about the PDA Experience Report: the first large-scale study of PDA lived experience in North America. Nearly 2,200 caregivers and PDA adults responded in just a month. Diane is the executive director and founder of PDA North America and a licensed clinical social worker; Melissa is a clinical psychologist and research scientist. Both credit the larger team behind the report, including Marni, who served as a final reviewer. Diane shares the origin of PDA North America, including the first conference held in Chicago the week before the world shut down in March 2020. The conversation then turns to what the report shows: the gap between caregiver perception and adult PDAer self-report (including underreported suicidal ideation), the near-universal endorsement of sensory sensitivity among adult PDAers, an 87.7% rate of school avoidance or refusal, and the financial hardship that shows up across the adult sample. They sit with the limits of the data, too—the whiteness of the sample, the mistrust of research in marginalized communities, and the real reasons the low-demand approach may not feel safe or accessible to families who don’t have the privilege to drop demands. Diane and Melissa close by talking about where PDA North America is headed next: more qualitative work, in-depth interviews with people from communities the survey didn’t reach, and a continued effort to help families act on what the report shows. PDA day (May 13) is this week, and PDA North America is hosting a full day of community programming. Links mentioned in the episode: * The PDA Experience Report * PDA North America * PDA Day * Episode 8: Mentoring PDAers With Trust and Curiosity with Amy Clark Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

After an extended break from recording, Marni and Chris return in episode 11 to talk about the reason for the gap: caregiving. Chris shares about supporting their friend and mentor, Michael M. Piechowski. The conversation moves from Chris’s specific experience into a wider exploration of what caregiving asks of PDAers, why the “selfish PDAer” stereotype gets it so wrong, and how the demands of caregiving land differently when they’re ones you’ve chosen. Chris and Marni discuss how PDAers they know are often deeply giving and compassionate caregivers, and Marni introduces Rabbi Shoshana’s circle of arrows model—where demands are imagined as arrows from outside a safe inner circle—as a way of understanding how the people we invite into our circle change the shape of caregiving entirely. They sit with the difference between caregiving for infants and elders, the importance of receiving care gracefully, and the cultural lie of full independence that Disability Studies has helped Marni name. The conversation also turns personal. Chris reflects on the contrast between caregiving for Michael now and being unable to be present for their father at the end of his life, and how watching their mother care for their father shaped what they later grew into. They talk about intellectual overexcitability as both a complication and a gift in caregiving, the identity rupture of new parenthood, and how interoception and embodiment have changed what they can offer over the past two decades. And they close with Michael’s own wisdom about cyclical dark times, staying present, and taking care of yourself. * Rabbi Shoshana’s circle of arrows model * Marni’s piece on the teenage years Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Episode 10 is a special episode of PDA: Resistance and Resilience—a collaborative roundtable conversation with seven neurodivergent podcasters, recorded as part of a research project exploring what podcasting makes possible as a way of creating and sharing knowledge. This episode is the companion recording to a peer-reviewed article published in the journal Neurodiversity as part of a special issue on critical neurodiversity studies. The paper, “Voices at the Margins: Podcasting as Neuroqueer Collaborative Autoethnography and Epistemic Healing,” positions podcasting as a legitimate research methodology—one that centers voice, emotion, lived experience, and relational connection rather than treating them as noise to be cleaned up. The conversation was guided by five open questions: What does podcasting make possible? Where have we felt excluded by traditional knowledge spaces? When has our lived experience been dismissed? What truths live in the contradictions and messiness? And how does podcasting ripple into neurodivergent community and belonging? What unfolded was raw, funny, moving, and deeply real. We talked about why you wouldn’t go to a mechanic who’s never driven a car, why platypuses break the rules of what’s supposed to exist, what it means to show up as yourself when everything around you says you’re supposed to show up differently, and how a single podcast episode can ripple outward in ways none of us could have predicted. Read the paper: https://doi.org/10.1177/27546330261437265 *A PDF of the transcript is available here. Hughes, C., Wells, C., Nicholson, E., Mayhew, B., Gay, S., Kammersell, M., & Mogler, T. (2026). Voices at the margins: Podcasting as neuroqueer collaborative autoethnography and epistemic healing. Neurodiversity, 4, 1–15. Podcasters in this episode: * Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a queer, nonbinary, multi-exceptional Australian social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate. Late-identified as Autistic, ADHD, Gifted, and PDA, Caitlin co-hosts the Divergent Dialogues podcast and brings a lived experience-led perspective to their work. They are committed to fostering epistemic healing through relational ethics, narrative reclamation, and accessible, lived experience–driven knowledge creation. * Chris Wells (they/them) is a multi-exceptional, nonbinary, and neurodivergent writer, podcaster, and developmental theorist specializing in Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration. They co-host the Positive Disintegration, cosmic cheer squad, and PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcasts, and are the founding president of the Dąbrowski Center and co-creator of the Positive Disintegration Network. Chris brings lived experience and a deep commitment to reframing neurodivergence through a developmental and relational lens. * Emma Nicholson (she/her) is a neurodivergent Australian Senior Business Analyst, creative and advocate, identifying as gifted, Dyscalculic, with all five overexcitabilities (psychomotor, sensual, intellectual, imaginational, and emotional), as well as bisexual and Heathen. She co-hosts the Positive Disintegration Podcast and serves as Vice President of the Dąbrowski Center. She is driven by an unkillable passion to demystify positive disintegration and share hard-won truths to help others feel seen and supported. * Bee Mayhew (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent (late-identified AuDHD, former gifted kid) writer, narrative collaborator, and communication coordinator for PDN Media. She co-hosts cosmic cheer squad podcast and has a background as a hospitality specialist and business owner. Bee’s work centers on collective narrative-building and neurodivergent storytelling through activist, community-rooted practice. * Sheldon Gay (he/him) is a Black Gifted speaker and podcast host of I Must Be BUG’N (Black Underrepresented/Unidentified Gifted and otherwise Neurodivergent). Sheldon is guided by the belief that learning to deeply and wholly Love oneSelf, cape and kryptonite, is the path to finding, creating, and maintaining Love everywhere we go. * Marni Kammersell (she/her) is an American late-identified neurodivergent (Autistic, ADHD, PDA, gifted) parent of neurodivergent children. She is an educator, researcher, writer, and consultant, and co-hosts the PDA: Resistance and Resilience podcast. Marni is dedicated to honoring neurodivergent experience through relational, self-directed, and nervous-system-informed knowledge practices. * Teena Mogler (she/her) is an Australian AuDHD social worker, researcher, educator, and advocate, as well as co-host of the Divergent Dialogues podcast. As a mother to neurodivergent children, Teena is passionate about amplifying neurodivergent voices and disrupting epistemic injustice through lived experience-led, neuroaffirming, and critically reflexive knowledge practices. Find the podcasters: * Divergent Dialogues: divergentdialogues.substack.com * I Must Be BUG’N: sheldongayisbugn.com * Positive Disintegration: www.positivedisintegration.org * cosmic cheer squad: cosmiccheersquad.substack.com * PDA: Resistance and Resilience: pdapodcast.substack.com Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Content note: This episode includes discussion of suicide, self-mutilation, psychiatric institutionalization, and mental illness in historical and personal contexts. In episode 9, Chris and Marni dive into the theory of positive disintegration (TPD), developed by Polish psychiatrist Kazimierz Dąbrowski. Chris shares the theory’s origins—rooted in Dąbrowski’s own lived experience of intensity and suffering, his clinical work with children who were struggling, and his revolutionary insight that inner conflict, heightened sensitivity, and resistance to conformity could serve as engines of personality development rather than signs of pathology. They explore overexcitabilities—the five types of heightened psychological experience (emotional, imaginational, intellectual, sensual, and psychomotor)—and why they’ve been misunderstood for decades, confined to the gifted education community. Chris discusses how overexcitability was originally about “nervousness” that was functionally disabling, not a marker of giftedness, and why Dąbrowski should be seen as a forerunner of the neurodiversity movement. The conversation covers the difference between unilevel and multilevel development—the distinction between conforming to external values and discovering your own hierarchy of values through lived experience—and why conditions and relationships matter so much for which direction development takes. Chris shares openly about their own decades-long journey through unilevel disintegrations before finding the support and connection needed for multilevel growth. They connect TPD to PDA through discussions of children’s autonomy, lying as developmental experimentation, the importance of letting children experience difficult emotions like guilt and shame as pathways to growth, and the role of relational safety and low-demand approaches in creating conditions where positive disintegration can unfold. Links mentioned in the episode: * Wells & Falk (2021): The Origins and Conceptual Evolution of Overexcitability [PDF] * Dąbrowski 101 * Positive Disintegration podcast episodes with Autum Romano Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 8, Marni and Chris talked with Dr. Amy Clark, whose doctoral research uncovered why mentoring is uniquely powerful for PDA learners. Amy explains what real mentoring looks like: attunement, autonomy, flexibility, and deep curiosity. We discuss why traditional educational models fail PDA kids, how burnout happens, why praise can backfire, and how families can bring mentoring principles into everyday life even without access to formal mentors. Amy also shares case studies from her research, including how one PDA student moved from total shutdown to thriving through a slow, relational, interest-based process. We close with the biggest misconception about PDA kids: they don’t need more discipline—they need safety, trust, and people who truly see them. Dr. Amy Haynes Clark is a leader in twice-exceptional development and neurodiversity-affirming systems design. Drawing on her doctorate in Cognitive Diversity and Innovative Leadership, she mentors profoundly gifted youth and supports families with children who identify as or experience autism, PDA, anxiety, OCD, Tourette’s, or ARFID. She guides parents in adopting strengths-based, self-directed learning approaches that foster connection, confidence, and harmony at home. Through her consultancy, Exceptionally Engaged, she also partners with educators and organizations to create psychologically safe, autonomy-supportive cultures where creative thinkers and teams can truly thrive. Links from this episode: Exceptionally Engaged (Amy’s website) Find Amy on instagram Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 7, Marni and Chris talked with Mattia Maurée, an AuDHD coach and host of the AuDHD Flourishing podcast. We explore the intersection of PDA, existential awareness, and the journey toward honoring our body’s wisdom. Mattia shares their personal journey from receiving diagnoses of complex PTSD and bipolar disorder as a young person to later discovering autism, ADHD, and PDA—reframings that made sense of a lifetime of experiences. We learn how PDA manifested in Mattia’s childhood and how it continues to show up in adulthood, particularly in resisting even self-generated demands. This conversation moves between the personal and the systemic, touching on the impact of poverty on autonomy and PDA, the role of privilege in being able to build a life aligned with one’s needs, and the importance of slowing down and listening to our bodies’ signals before they escalate. Mattia Maurée (they/them) is an AuDHD coach and host of the AuDHD Flourishing Podcast. Creative outlets in music and the arts became Mattia’s refuge through a childhood full of unpredictability. Confronting trauma sparked an interest in the topic, and it led to their Autism diagnosis in their 30s, as well as finding somatic neurodivergent-friendly methods of working through depression and anxiety. They now share their experiences to give hope to queer, trans, and neurodivergent folks through the philosophy of “feel better first.” Resources from this episode * Mattia’s website and podcast, AuDHD Flourishing * AuDHD Flourishing Episode 87: Giftedness & the Sparkly Mind with Sheldon Gay * AuDHD Flourishing Episode 88: Gifted Development & Positive Disintegration with Chris Wells * AuDHD Flourishing Episode 108: Using Intuition Practically * Robert Chapman’s book Empire of Normality Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 6, Chris and Marni talk with Becca Campbell, an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer and the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company. We discuss the unique challenges and insights that come with travel as a PDA adult and parent. Travel often means facing layers of uncertainty, shifting routines, and unexpected demands — all of which can spark resistance and anxiety. Together, we explore: * Why new places and disrupted routines intensify PDA responses * Strategies for navigating travel with kids who have a pervasive drive for autonomy * The tension between wanting adventure and needing safety and predictability * How privilege, support, and self-awareness shape the ability to travel * The ways travel mirrors the larger journey of life with PDA: detours, resilience, and rethinking what “success” looks like Becca shares stories from her own experience of parenting and traveling, offering both validation and practical insight for families wondering what’s possible — and how to find autonomy even when on the road. Becca Campbell is an ADHD PDAer raising an ADHD PDAer. She’s the founder of Matching Sweaters Travel Company, where she helps neurodivergent families plan travel rooted in strengths, interests, curiosity, and autonomy. Her upcoming book blends memoir and practical tools to support families who want to explore the world without leaving themselves behind. Resources from this episode Connect with Becca Campbell: Instagram --> @matchingsweaterstravel Facebook --> Matching Sweaters Travel Website --> https://matchingsweaterstravel.wordpress.com/ Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 5, Marni and Chris talked with Caitlin Hughes, a multi-exceptional (Autistic, ADHD, Gifted) Accredited Mental Health Social Worker and founder of Cathartic Collaborations, a neurodivergent-affirming private practice in Brisbane, Australia. We explore what it really means to live with a pervasive drive for autonomy as an adult. We talk about how privilege, safety, and life design shape the PDA experience, how early coping strategies evolve over time, and why autonomy-supportive environments matter for everyone. With insights drawn from both lived experience and professional practice, we unpack the nuances often missed in child-focused PDA conversations and offer perspectives that validate, challenge, and inspire. Key themes included: * The internal struggle with self-imposed demands. Even when tasks are self-initiated and aligned with personal desires, the pressure of execution can trigger significant distress. * Having the freedom to make choices is essential for regulating our nervous systems. This autonomy allows us to honor our needs and set boundaries, which is vital for mental well-being. * Caitlin introduced us to the concept of Internal Family Systems (IFS), which views our psyche as composed of different parts. This framework can help us understand our reactions and emotions better. Caitlin Hughes (she/they) is a multi-exceptional (Autistic, ADHD, Gifted) Accredited Mental Health Social Worker and the founder of Cathartic Collaborations, a neurodivergent-affirming private practice based in Brisbane, Australia. Drawing on both lived and professional experience, Caitlin provides somatic, trauma-informed therapeutic support for neurocomplex and neuroqueer folks, helping clients embrace their unique neurotypes and build self-defined lives of meaning and purpose. Caitlin is a passionate advocate for neurodivergent mental health, with a special interest in supporting other social workers to grow in their affirming practice. They facilitate the Neurodivergent Affirming Social Workers Collective on Facebook and co-host Divergent Dialogues, a podcast and Substack publication exploring neurodivergent mental health through a blend of research, personal experience, and reflective conversation. Currently completing a PhD focused on Autistic mental health, Caitlin is a published researcher with a strong interest in qualitative inquiry and systems change. Links from this episode: Cathartic Collaborations (Caitlin’s website) Divergent Dialogues Inside the Nervous System: Reframing PDA with IFS (Caitlin’s blog) Find Caitlin on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and LinkedIn Caitlin’s episodes on Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 4 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, Marni and Chris were joined by Katy Higgins Lee, MFT, a multiply neurodivergent therapist and parent from Santa Rose, California. Together, we dive into the complex terrain of functioning labels, exploring how terms like “high-functioning” and even PDA itself can be misused in ways that reduce human complexity and perpetuate ableist assumptions. The conversation weaves through lived experiences, therapeutic insights, and parenting reflections while highlighting how labels often obscure more than they clarify. Key themes include: * Why functioning labels are outdated and harmful * How giftedness and twice-exceptionality (2e) are often misunderstood or misused * The tension between parenting support and pathologizing language * How PDA is sometimes used to imply “not autistic” * Why educational settings often misjudge our kids’ needs, and how unschooling can offer new freedom * Why supporting our kids means shifting our own assumptions about functioning, success, and motivation Join us for a rich, honest, and affirming conversation about dismantling stigma, honoring complexity, and making space for each person’s truth. Bio: Katy Higgins Lee (she/her) is a multiply neurodivergent therapist in Northern California where she supports neurodivergent adults and couples. She also supports fellow therapists through clinical supervision, consultation, and continuing education courses, along with Authentic Movement groups for therapists. She has a Masters Degree in Counseling Psychology with an emphasis in Somatics from the California Institute of Integral Studies. Katy also provides psychoeducation and advocacy through social media (under the name Tending Paths) and is a homeschooling/unschooling parent, writer, and gardener. Links from this episode Visit Katy’s website You can find Katy [Tending Paths] on Instagram and Facebook Katy was a guest on Positive Disintegration Episode 30: Celebrating Neurodiversity, Overexcitabilities, and Giftedness Ticket Theory by Hilary Knutson Giftedness as Neurodivergence, Not Functioning Label: Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

Welcome to Episode 3 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, recorded in Skokie, Illinois, following the PDA North America Conference. In this episode, Marni and Chris reflect on their time at the event—what it was like to attend as participants rather than presenters, the range of experiences among PDA parents and adults, and the importance of building community across stages of life and development. From honoring nervous system needs and exploring adult PDA identity to parenting struggles, unschooling, and reframing success outside conventional norms, this conversation is rich with lived insight and emotional honesty. Chris shares about using their imagination to survive trauma and how that process eventually integrated into their grounded adult life. Marni talks about shifting expectations and learning from the wisdom of neurodivergent tradespeople. Together, they trace the complexity of the PDA experience—internalized and externalized, across age, gender, and social location. Topics include: * Reflections on the PDA North America Annual Conference * The value of seeing other PDA adults thriving * Parenting through the lens of PDA and neurodivergence * Internal vs. external PDA manifestations over time * Navigating school decisions and prioritizing well-being * Imagination as escape and integration * The intersection of giftedness, autonomy, and social justice * College, trades, and expanding definitions of success Referenced people & organizations: * PDA North America * Marna Wohlfeld (Editor of GHF Journey) * Amanda Diekman (Low Demand Parenting) * Chris’s episode on AuDHD Flourishing podcast * Julie Bogart (on homeschooling and perspective) Connect With Us Subscribe to PDA: Resistance and Resilience on Substack Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 2, Marni and Chris dive into the question, What is PDA?—not just how it’s defined by others, but how it feels in our bodies and shows up across our lives. We explore how definitions grounded in childhood behaviors can fall short when you're trying to understand yourself as an adult—and why lived experience should be at the center of the conversation. Together, we unpack: * How PDA often first enters our lives through parenting or professional roles, and how recognition of ourselves comes later * The tension between knowing we fit the profile and not fully resonating with how it’s described * The emotional logic behind demand avoidance, especially in relation to autonomy, power, and safety * The creative, sometimes subversive strategies we used to avoid demands as kids and teens * The pathologizing of deep, intense relationships—and how “obsessive” interests in people have been both misunderstood and essential * Our evolving understanding of masking and how we each navigate diplomacy, honesty, and authenticity This conversation is part of an ongoing process of naming, questioning, and making sense of PDA from the inside out. If you’ve ever felt like the existing descriptions don’t fully capture your reality, we hope you’ll feel seen in this space. *Show notes created with the help of AI, but our conversations are always 100% human! Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe

In episode 1 of PDA: Resistance and Resilience, co-hosts Marni Kammersell and Chris Wells sit down for an unscripted, personal conversation about Pathological Demand Avoidance as a lived experience. Together, we explore what it means to question the dominant narratives around PDA, especially as adults who have spent a lifetime resisting internal and external demands. This episode highlights what is often missing in the public discourse: a diversity of adult perspectives, the complexity of experience, and the possibility of reframing PDA as something other than a pathology. Topics include: * Why “resistance to compulsion” feels more accurate than “pathological” * The personal cost of being misunderstood as gifted or oppositional * How fantasy, internal avoidance, and world-building can serve as survival strategies * The ongoing tension between autonomy and belonging * Navigating PDA traits without self-erasure or shame * Living with integrity when structure and systems don’t fit We share our own stories as humans, figuring things out as we go. This episode opens the door to a different kind of conversation—one rooted in curiosity, mutual respect, and a deep commitment to honoring neurodivergent lives. PDA remains a developing concept within the neurodivergent community. Many people resonate with its traits but struggle to find clear definitions or supportive frameworks. Our conversation points to the need for more dialogue about the adult experience, since most existing literature focuses on children. By sharing our stories and insights, we hope to expand the conversation and reflect the complexity of adult lives shaped by PDA. *Show notes created with the help of AI, but our conversations are always 100% human! Connect With Us Wandering Brightly with Marni Kammersell Positive Disintegration and cosmic cheer squad with Chris Wells Follow us on Instagram If you enjoyed this episode on Apple or Spotify, please remember to click on the stars and leave a rating or write a review. Thank you! Get full access to PDA: Resistance and Resilience at pdapodcast.substack.com/subscribe