Advertise on podcast: Zero Click Marketing

I tossed out the idea that “today GEO is CRO,” and it gave Ross Hudgens actual goosebumps, because he’d just written about the same thing. Ross argues that if you can convince a user to buy, you can convince an LLM to recommend you.  Ross is the founder of Siege Media and author of Generative Engine Optimization, and we talked about what actually drives AI visibility. We discuss his research on more than 100 B2B websites, why comparison pages are associated with more AI referral traffic, and the limitations of AI attribution. Timestamps: 00:00 — Is GEO just SEO with a new name? 07:20 — Research: Why comparison pages are winning in AI search 09:23 — Is GEO the new CRO? 16:03 — Measuring AI influence when nobody clicks 22:37 — How smaller brands can compete in AI search Connect with Ross Hudgens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rosshudgens/  Check out Siege Media: https://www.siegemedia.com  Get Generative Engine Optimization: The Definitive Guide to AI SEO: https://www.siegemedia.com/geo-book  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Rand Fishkin (my co-author!)  is back on the show for a special episode about our new book, Zero Click Marketing. We talk about what surprised us while recording the audiobook, and some of the Zero Click Marketing ideas that marketers have pushed back on the most. We get especially fired up about attribution and post-purchase surveys and taking stronger positions in your content. Plus, learn how an expert like Rand is learning an entirely new kind of marketing as he builds his gaming company, Snack Bar Studios. In this episode: 00:00 — Why useful advice requires taking a position 03:55 — AI, gatekeeping, and the freedom to build things yourself 08:26 — Why Rand is deliberately making his content weirder and more human 12:00 — What marketers understand — and resist — about Zero-Click Marketing 14:24 — The problem with “How did you hear about us?” 18:50 — A surprise cameo 20:12 — Why free-text attribution surveys don't solve the problem 25:28 — The question to ask customers instead 30:09 — The opportunity cost of asking a bad question 31:23 — How Rand learned to market an indie video game from scratch 38:37 — Please buy our book. Or don't. We're very good at this. Buy our book, “Zero Click Marketing: How to Build Brands and Earn Customers on a Traffic-Starved Web,” at zeroclickmarketing.co/book or on Amazon! Connect with Rand Fishkin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/randfishkin/?isSelfProfile=false  Check out SparkToro: https://sparktoro.com/  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Marketing keeps changing. But good marketing? Not so much. Sarah Stockdale, founder and CEO of Growclass, joins me to talk about what still matters as algorithms, AI, attribution, and the platforms change. We talk about what still wins, and one crucial skill you still need today. In this episode: 00:00 Why good marketing was never supposed to be easy 03:30 The fundamentals that still matter 07:15 Why changing user behavior is so hard 15:39 What “direct traffic” is hiding 16:15 When your marketing data is too good to be true 18:51 What still matters in the age of AI 20:09 Skepticism for… 22:47 How Growclass investigates direct traffic and dark social Connect with Sarah Stockdale: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sarahstockdale/  Check out Growclass: http://growclass.co  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Josh Ho, founder and CEO of ReferralRock, and I chit chat about marketing challenges and opportunities as of late. My fave part of this episode is when Josh explains how ReferralRock turns its existing customer conversations into an always-on source of audience research — using real customer language and anecdotes to shape strategy. (This happens about 15 minutes in!) We also get into why marketers need both audience data and anecdotes, what AI changes about qualitative research, and how the smallest, weirdest details can sometimes become the most memorable parts of a brand. Timestamps 00:00 — How Josh learned marketing through SEO and inbound 05:23 — How ReferralRock gets customers today 07:55 — When attribution is broken, what do you measure instead? 13:34 — AI search, prompts, and understanding buyer intent 15:10 — Turning customer calls into an audience research engine 20:47 — Creating content from what customers actually ask about 27:47 — Why marketers need “audiences + anecdotes” 30:02 — Blue spoons, memorable details, and creating word of mouth 35:29 — What does a “blue spoon” look like in B2B SaaS? Connect with Josh Ho: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuajho/ Check out Referral Rock: https://referralrock.com  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Wil Reynolds joins me to chop it up over what AI is changing — and what it’s revealing — about marketing, expertise, and trust. We talk about using AI without losing your voice, why accountability may matter more than “taste,” and how AI search is making it harder for brands to simply optimize their way into credibility. Wil also explains why he’d rather measure human trust than algorithmic visibility, how an intern exposed gaps in his own 25+ years of SEO experience, and why this moment in AI has rekindled the way he wants to build Seer Interactive. Chapters 00:00 — Human trust vs. algorithmic proxies 03:14 — Spotting AI slop on LinkedIn 06:23 — The upside of competition in AI 08:15 — AI, creativity, and owning your work 25:49 — Taste vs. accountability in an AI world 27:58 — AI search is forcing brands to bring receipts 34:21 — Why SEO and AI visibility aren’t the same 38:42 — Measuring human trust instead of algorithmic traffic 46:29 — Hiring for a world that’s changing again Connect with Wil Reynolds: https://www.linkedin.com/in/wilreynolds/  Check out Seer Interactive: https://www.seerinteractive.com/  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Wistia CEO Chris Savage joins me to talk about how marketing has evolved in recent years, especially now as attribution keeps getting harder. We also dig into building sustainable content programs, finding opportunities in saturated channels, making the case for creative risks, and why some of the ideas that are hardest to green-light are actually the most valuable. Timestamps 00:00 — Why the hardest ideas end up being the most valuable 01:31 — Wistia’s sustainable approach building its podcast 06:38 — Let the audience choose the format 10:19 — Marketing in a zero-click world 14:02 — Massive opportunities in untrackable marketing 16:36 — How to pitch bold ideas to leadership 20:42 — Where Chris would invest if he were starting from scratch 28:19 — Brand search as a leading marketing indicator 31:05 — How marketers can manage up more effectively Connect with Chris Savage: https://www.linkedin.com/in/cjsavage/  Check out Talking Too Loud: https://wistia.com/series/talking-too-loud  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

As AI makes it easier to produce more content, podcasting offers something increasingly valuable: unmistakable evidence of a real person behind those ideas. Erica Bonser, co-founder of Fan Club, joins me to talk about what success should actually look like for a new show, and how marketers can turn a podcast into a sustainable engine — without expecting immediate business results. Chapters 00:00 — Why podcasting feels distinctly human in the AI era 00:41 — What fitness brands teach us about identity and marketing 09:53 — Starting a podcast makes you a better communicator 11:34 — What should a podcast actually accomplish? 15:45 — Defining success and overcoming the “podcast graveyard” 19:10 — Why Erica isn’t worried about business outcomes yet 22:12 — The reality of sustaining a podcast 23:47 — Erica’s podcasting cheat sheet for 2026 Connect with Erica Bonser: https://www.linkedin.com/in/erica-bonser/  Check out Fan Club Brands: https://fanclubbrands.co/  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

It’s never been easier to create content — which means simply making content isn’t much of an advantage anymore. Today, I talk about what AI changes about the creator economy, why credibility is becoming more valuable as content gets cheaper, and how marketers should evaluate creator partnerships beyond clicks and impressions.  Chapters 00:00 — It has never been easier to create mediocre content 00:45 — How the creator economy has grown up 02:14 — As content gets cheaper, credibility gets more valuable 03:15 — Why creator marketing *is* Zero Click Marketing 04:08 — The prerequisite: authority with the right audience 05:01 — #1: Message transfer 06:24 — #2: Audience saturation 08:02 — #3: Asset value 10:01 — What the creator economy rewards now Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

What happens when your marketing is clearly doing something — but attribution can’t tell you exactly what? In this conversation with Wistia’s Talking Too Loud, we dig into zero click marketing, branded search, word of mouth, recall, and the growing gap between what marketers can measure and what actually influences people. It’s a conversation about learning to work with evidence instead of expecting perfect proof — and it feels even more relevant now than when we recorded it. This episode was originally published on Talking Too Loud, Wistia's podcast about the brands, products, and marketing moves people can’t stop thinking — and talking — about. Watch the original episode: https://wi.st/TTLNatividad Explore more Talking Too Loud: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMCL9HnQdLDHx8xxzeorzmQ Learn more about Wistia: https://wistia.com/ Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

This is me reacting in real time to news from Promptwatch and Petra Labs that Reddit just lost about 80% of citations in ChatGPT. TL;DR: chasing platform behavior is not a good strategy. Other sources: AxiosSemrushProfound Timestamps:00:00 Reddit citations fell off a cliff. So what?00:59 Your strategy shouldn’t depend on one platform01:54 If your audience uses Reddit, Reddit still matters03:10 ChatGPT citation behavior is wildly unstable04:26 The boring winner: brand-owned websites05:32 Build useful homes across the internet06:36 AI visibility is a benefit of good marketing ZCM Field Notes are short reactions to news or observations of what’s happening in the field. Edits can be a little messy 'cause I'm doing them with my bare hands. Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads

LinkedIn’s feed has changed since I first published this episode — but the core idea holds up: the platform is trying to understand what you talk about, who should care, and what deserves distribution. In this refreshed Field Note, I revisit LinkedIn’s retrieval-and-ranking system, clarify what topical consistency actually means, touch on the new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature, and explain why the best LinkedIn strategy still looks a lot like behaving normally at a party. Timestamps 00:00 — What’s changed since the original episode 01:05 — Retrieval vs. ranking: the “two algorithms” caveat 01:28 — Why topical consistency still matters 02:20 — LinkedIn’s new “Seems like AI slop” reporting feature 03:20 — Stop chasing algorithm hacks; become understandable 05:02 — How LinkedIn’s retrieval and ranking stages work 06:20 — Why LinkedIn is like a party 10:03 — The real LinkedIn strategy: predictable relevance Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

AI is new, yet somehow it’s already exhausting. Marketers are under constant pressure to adopt more tools, track more things, rethink their strategies, figure out AI visibility, and generally become smarter about a technology that keeps changing underneath them. So this week, we’re resurfacing a conversation with my co-author Rand Fishkin because it feels even more useful now than when we recorded it. We talk about how to make smart marketing bets when perfect attribution is impossible, what AI visibility can and can’t actually tell you, why “rank tracking” inside LLMs is mostly the wrong mental model, and where AI genuinely helps marketers — provided you know enough to recognize when it’s wrong. Most importantly, this is a conversation about keeping your head while everyone else is telling you to do more. In this episode: 04:20 — How to measure marketing when you can’t prove causation 07:11 — Why executives accept fuzzy measurement for traditional advertising but demand perfect attribution from digital 08:45 — Leading and lagging indicators for zero-click marketing 14:07 — Why AI actually makes zero-click marketing easier to understand 19:49 — Rand’s skepticism about AI visibility tracking — and the research that changed his mind 27:02 — What Rand learned about real versus synthetic prompts 30:52 — Using AI to analyze marketing data without outsourcing your judgment 33:45 — Zero Click Marketing does not mean zero sales Of course, you’ll learn all about this and more in our forthcoming book, Zero Click Marketing. It comes out this October, and you can preorder today at zeroclickmarketing.co/book.  Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Marketers know how to distribute content. But getting a post, podcast, or report in front of people doesn’t guarantee that its central idea will stick. Today, we dive into the difference between content performance and idea portability — and I offer five qualities that help an idea travel beyond its original container: immediate usefulness, a memorable handle, and oh… guess you’ll have to listen to find out the rest.  Timestamps 00:00 — Moving content vs. making ideas portable 02:07 — How the Paul Rudd example traveled 03:18 — Make it useful without the click 07:15 — Find the smallest complete version 08:51 — Make the idea applicable 10:21 — Give up control of the route 12:14 — Influence is bigger than attribution Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

The zero click internet sounds like marketing jargon, but the idea is simple: platforms increasingly give people answers without sending them to the original source. Citing my recent NPR appearance and using Paul Rudd as the leading example, I explain the zero click web… for your mom. Well, for my mom. Both, really. I also break down why the shift is convenient for users, difficult for publishers, and impossible for marketers to ignore. In this episode: 00:00 — Zero-click marketing for the normies 01:09 — Paul Rudd and the zero click internet 02:41 — The broken bargain between platforms and publishers 03:50 — How AI accelerates the shift 05:14 — Creating value without holding it behind a click 06:00 — What my NPR/Planet Money interview reveals about influence 07:32 — Making ideas useful, clear, and memorable enough to travel Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com

Good marketing is not about doing more. I explain why every channel creates an ongoing obligation, how opportunity cost shapes modern marketing, and the three filters to decide what deserves time, energy, and attention. Timestamps 00:00 — Why doing more is not the answer 01:39 — What should you stop doing? 02:04 — Marketing channels are recurring obligations 02:56 — How maintenance overwhelms strategy 03:21 — The question to ask before saying yes 05:13 — When metrics should change your plans 06:47 — What can you stop feeling guilty about? 07:11 — You do not have to show up everywhere Learn more: zeroclickmarketing.co Connect with Amanda Natividad (@amandanat): LinkedIn | Substack | Instagram | Threads This episode was produced in partnership with Share Your Geniuswww.shareyourgenius.com