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I've been fanboying over April's work for years. Her book "Obviously Awesome" was foundational—it taught me what good positioning actually looks like. I literally read it weekly at one point. Still do, quarterly, to make sure I'm not drifting too far off. So when I was winding down this season and wanted to go out with something special, there was only one person I wanted in the chair: April Dunford. Problem: I'd never actually talked to her. And surely someone running a massive positioning consultancy wouldn't have time for a scrappy PMM podcast, right? I filled out a form on her site anyway. Just threw it out there: "I know you're prob busy—but would love to have you on to talk product launches." She responded. I think I blacked out for a moment. Next thing I know, I'm recording with the PMM GOAT and this conversation went 30 minutes because it was too good to cut short. She casually drops the "rolling thunder" concept—just because your product is released doesn't mean you have to launch it—and a bunch of other absolute gems about how most launches fail, why your positioning thesis is probably wrong, and what big companies do that startups don't. Here's what we got into: What exactly is a Rolling Thunder launch? A Rolling Thunder launch decouples your product's release from your marketing launch — instead of one all-or-nothing "big bang" day, you spread your announcement across multiple moments over the course of a year. April picked this up running launches at IBM, where big companies never tie software availability to a single splashy event.The 4 phases, straight from April: Pre-launch: Tease that something's coming to whip up demand with your most likely buyers, and brief analysts lightly — before you're ready to say much. Bonus effect: it puts competitors on notice mid-sales-cycle.Launch: The day marketing actually talks: the event, the PR, the first customer stories. Key detail — this can happen months after the product was quietly made available to real users.Momentum Launch (~3 months later): Go back out and report on traction: usage numbers, logos, metrics. This is where the customers you held back from day one finally get used.Follow-on / Point Release Launch (~3 months after that): Announce the thing customers have been asking for since launch, with more proof points attached. Then the cycle often restarts with a new tease for what's next.We also get into why locking your positioning to your GA date is a mistake — and how a quiet, limited-availability period lets you validate your positioning thesis with real customers before you spend the budget on the big moment. Additional Resources Get April's Book "Obviously Awesome"Work with AprilAnd huge thanks to PMM Camp for partnering with us for S1 - it's THE place to grow as a PMM leader, get connected with like-minded PMM peers, and single handedly contributed to 2/3 of this season's guests.

A few years back, I'd just launched a brand new pod, and out of nowhere Zach shot me a DM just to tell me he was rooting for it. No ask, no agenda — just a kind gesture that ended up changing my life for the better. Fast forward to now: we text almost weekly, he's my go-to PMM sounding board keeping me sane, and he's living his best life running his own agency, Scope and Sequence, and chopping it up on the We're Not Marketers podcast. But it wasn't always smooth. If you follow Zach on LinkedIn (you should), he's refreshingly candid about the wins, the losses, and the painful lessons along the way. One of those lessons is exactly what we get into on this one: he dropped $12k on a launch for his newly created offering, waited 30 days, and watched zero pipeline show up. The killer wasn't the offer — it was one objection he kept hearing on repeat: "AI can build that for us." In this episode he unpacks exactly what happened with that launch, the research he did afterward, and how he's rebuilding his whole approach to AI workflows and product launches around intention and process instead of just chasing a hunch. Here's what we get into: The real signal buried underneath "AI can build that for us"Three reasons AI workflows stall before teams even get startedWhy "this feels hard" is a green light, not a reason to bailHow to strip emotional attachment out of a launch decision so you know when to pivotThe intention-plus-process shift he's carrying into what's next Resources from this Episode Connect with Zach on LinkedInListen to Zach on the We're Not Marketers podCheck out what Zach's building w/Scope & Sequence And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

I was building out Season 1 of this podcast and realized I had a gap: I'd never actually talked about how to set launch goals. So I asked a bunch of PMMs how they approach it. Most of them said some version of the same thing: "I kind of guess." That's when Tamara—who I know through PMM Camp—dropped a post on this exact topic. She walked through the entire process: how to think about it, what questions to ask, where to get your numbers. And it wasn't vague theory. It was tactical, step-by-step stuff. So we recorded this episode. Tamara's the founder of PMM Camp and has set launch goals across companies like Unbounce and FreshBooks. She's seen what works and what doesn't. And she's been incredibly generous about breaking down the whole thing. Why do you need to set a launch goal? According to Tamara, most PMMs feel like they're picking a number out of a hat when they set launch goals. But it's actually much more logical than that. It's about understanding what company goal you're supporting with the launch—are you driving acquisition, retention, expansion, or entering a new market?—and then working backward from there. Once you know the underlying company goal, you can connect every assumption, every metric, and every success criteria back to it. Without that connection, you'll hit a number but miss alignment. And alignment is what gets you recognized. Here's how Tamara approaches setting launch goals: Step 1: Connect the launch back to the company goal — Start by asking: What is the company trying to achieve by building this? Are we acquiring new customers, retaining existing ones, expanding revenue, solving churn, or entering a new market? This conversation comes first—before anything else. It's the foundation everything else hangs on.Step 2: Ask "Why are we building this?" and align your product manager — Don't assume the product solves everything. Approach your PM with curiosity and frame it as a team effort: "How do we both position ourselves to get the highest impact outcome?" Get clear on the primary business driver. If your PM says "this feature will do everything," dig deeper. Most launches need a singular focus, even if the product has broader potential.Step 3: Size the market opportunity with real assumptions — Take the company goal and break it down into segments, customer counts, and realistic conversion rates. Tamara uses this example: If you have 2,000 customers and only 20% use Feature X, and you assume 50% of those might be interested in an upgrade, and you can convert X%, will that actually move the needle? Back out multiple scenarios to find the realistic path forward that's both reasonable and exciting for the business.Step 4: Pressure-test your assumptions with cross-functional teams — Bring in the people who know more than you. Work with your Product Manager to validate assumptions. Talk to Sales about close rates and pipeline breakdown for the segments you're targeting. Ask Finance if you have historical data on similar launches or if your percentage assumptions are right. You're not looking for permission—you're looking for the missing pieces of the puzzle.Step 5: Build a KPI tree and use it for every launch — This is Tamara's number one recommendation. Map out your business from top to bottom: Level 1 metrics (acquisition, conversion, engagement, retention, expansion), then drill down into how you actually drive each one, then go one level deeper. Most PMMs don't even know what the levers are in their business. Once you have the tree, you use it for every project to isolate where that particular launch can have impact—and connect that impact back up to the company goal. Resources from this Episode Subscribe to Tamara's Newsletter: a weekly insight into product marketing strategyConnect with Tamara: LinkedInLearn more about PMM Camp: pmmcamp.com And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp — the community for PMM leaders, and where this whole thing started.

I met Allison at a startup marketer panel in SF about a year ago, and from the literal moment I introduced myself, I knew she was both a dope human and a legitimately sharp PMM. We stayed connected over that year—talking PMM life, venting about what we loved and hated about the work, and watching as she seriously pondered the jump from agency life to going in-house. Then she landed at PetDesk, and honestly, what she's been doing there has been nothing short of SICK. But there's one specific product launch move she pulled off that made my ears perk up immediately. I knew I had to get her on the podcast. In this episode, she walks me through the exact moment a conference demo shifted her entire team's trajectory, how she weaponized a real customer reaction to scale confidence across the org, and the unsexy-but-critical enablement moves that most of us miss when we're too obsessed with perfect messaging instead of actual belief. Here's what we get into: Why great messaging on a deck won't fix a confidence gap (and what enablement actually has to do)The conference demo story that led to one rep doubling his quota (and how it rippled across the entire team)How to use live customer reactions and proof points in your enablement to build seller confidence at scaleThe demo iteration move that actually works: watching what lands in real time, then rebuilding your enablement around itOne relationship-first thing you can do tomorrow to start embedding with your sales team Resources from this Episode Connect with Allison on LinkedIn And a special thanks to PMM Camp for sponsoring this season - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

I recorded this conversation with Sushmita a few months back, and it's become essential listening because it names something I see everywhere with PMM: we obsess over external launch messaging and completely wing internal comms. Sushmita is now a Senior PMM at KEV Group, but when we talked, she'd orchestrated launches across a massive multi-product portfolio. And here's what she told me — most organizations have zero structure around who needs what information, when they need it, and why it matters. Sales gets surprised at launch day. Product doesn't know what's being said about their work. CS has no idea what questions are coming. And suddenly your launch collapses not because the messaging was bad, but because nobody inside the building was actually aligned. This is the blind spot that separates senior PMMs from everyone else - and thank goodness it's a pretty quick fix. Here's what we cover: Why internal comms is the least structured part of launches — and why it's actually killing your credibilityLaunch vs. release: understanding the difference so you're not over-communicating or under-communicatingThe communication checkpoint framework: mapping stakeholders backwards from launch day so nobody gets blindsidedHow tiering launches keeps you sane when you're managing multiple productsOne thing you can do tomorrow: build your own comms timeline and watch how much harder you can push back post-launch Resources Connect with Sushmita on LinkedIn And a special thanks to PMM Camp for sponsoring this season - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Your sales team reads your messaging doc once and starts saying it their own way. Your marketing team reshapes it for their campaigns. Your customers reinterpret it for their own workflows. And you're probably blaming them for it. Ashley thinks the problem is actually on you - and at LinkedIn, she's figured out how to fix it. In this episode, Ashley pulls back the curtain on what actually makes messaging work across a team. We talk about why alignment matters more than craft, how to design your message so it doesn't break when it's retold, and why enablement isn't an afterthought—it's the entire job. Here's what we get into: Why clarity and alignment are not the same thing (and why alignment is harder)How to design your messaging so it survives the game of telephoneThe difference between message craft and message activationWhy co-building with your team early saves you from chaos laterHow to test if your message breaks down once it leaves your hands Resources from this episode Connect with Ashley on LinkedIn And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Here's the problem most PMMs face: you're about to brief your marketing team on a product you don't fully understand yet. No customer research backing it. No positioning validated. Just a product that exists and a launch date that's locked. That's exactly where Shannon found herself a few years back. Her hand was forced. So she did something unconventional—she decided to test the messaging in market before committing the budget. She worked with her acquisition team, set up rapid tests, and learned more in two weeks than she would have in months of gut feel. That forced experiment became a framework. And she's now refined it across 15+ launches for D2C, PLG, and early-stage companies. What is A/B message testing for product launches? According to Shannon, it's the fastest way to move from ideas, hypotheses, and gut feel into actual data-backed things that work—and then scale them. It's not a replacement for research. It's a feedback loop during your launch that lets you test multiple angles in market, learn what resonates in real time, and bring those insights back to the entire organization so everyone's learning together as you roll out. Here's how Shannon approaches doing message testing for product launches: Step 1: Start with performance context — Pull existing data that informs how tests should run: old campaign data, results from your last message test, whatever you have that shows what's worked before. Work with your acquisition team to see what they want to measure.Step 2: Design your test structure — Run a couple rounds of concept tests with a specific budget allocation. Build 3-4 ad variants per concept (not just one). This gives you valid output. Shannon's seen organizations run $500 per concept over a 5-day sprint for enough data to make a decision.Step 3: Define your primary test metric — How are you actually measuring success? Short sales cycle D2C? Maybe it's return on ad spend. Maybe you need to move up market and just look at cost per click. These are directional results—you're not trying to do the acquisition team's job, you're getting a read on the market.Step 4: Build hypotheses from real inputs — Find recurring themes in Reddit threads, support tickets, competitor ads, customer conversations, G2 reviews. Turn those themes into testable predictions. Then structure each hypothesis around the three levers: emotional messaging (aspiration, loss framing), functional messaging (what the product does), or social messaging (who they want to be seen as).Step 5: Hand off to creative and acquisition, then iterate — Write out your hypothesis, the insight backing it, the behavioral driver you're testing, and any creative guardrails. Let them run the test. Track directional results (not necessarily stat sig). Bring learnings back to the org. Rinse and repeat. Resources from this Episode Connect with Shannon on LinkedInWork with Shannon: ⁠https://morethansaid.com/⁠Shannon's message testing framework templateShannon's Claude skill for message testing And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

I've been a Navattic fanboy for years. I always wondered: how much is the tool versus knowing what you're doing? So I asked Natalie, Head of Product Marketing at Navattic. She's watched teams nail interactive demos or waste months building the wrong thing. Most PMMs skip demos entirely—"too much work," they say. But Natalie's seen the data. It's costing you pipeline on launch day. Why do you need an interactive demo for a product launch? Most PMMs record themselves clicking through like a tutorial. That's the problem. An interactive demo isn't about showing everything—it's controlled storytelling that converts. When you're launching, prospects are skeptical. They want to see it work in context, with real data, controlled by them. A proper demo eliminates friction and proves value. Here's how Natalie approaches building interactive demos for launches: Step 1: Decide goal and channel first — Where lives this demo? Homepage? Landing page? Email? Sales enablement? Your channel determines length, depth, and value props.Step 2: Identify 2-3 aha moments — Listen to sales calls. Find what actually closes deals, not everything the product does. Gut-check with sales before building.Step 3: Capture with the right method — Public-facing? Use HTML capture (86% of top demos do). You can edit data to show real context. Internal? Screenshots work.Step 4: Write line-by-line script — Focus on those 2-3 moments. Use AI to draft from existing assets (sales scripts, positioning docs). Always edit first drafts. Gut-check with sales.Step 5: Optimize for 5-13 steps — Completion drops past 13 steps. If you need more, break into chapters (3-6 max) and let users choose what to explore.Step 6: Make the gating call — 65-70% of top demos are ungated (higher engagement). If you gate: one field only, explain why, show value.Step 7: Polish, brand, add multiple CTAs — Match your brand colors. Use text variation. Add CTA halfway through, not just at the end. Track and iterate. Resources State of Interactive Product Demo Report 2026 (ungated)Connect with NatalieTry Navattic free Thanks to PMM Camp — where product marketers build leadership range to move beyond execution and influence strategy.

You found the perfect template. You filled it in to the letter. You shipped it. And then... your leadership tears it apart, your sales team ignores it, and you're left wondering what went wrong. Talya has been there. Multiple times. Across multiple companies. And she's got a sharp take on why we treat frameworks like gospel when they should be treated like clay that needs reshaping for your actual business. In this episode, we skip the rigid structure and just talk - because that's what happens when Talya shows up. She walks through the exact moment when a PMM defaults to a template and why that's what kills launches. She also breaks down how to pressure-test any doc before it goes live, how to trust your instinct even if you're junior, and why your BS meter is probably right. Here's what we cover: Why templates feel safe (and why that's the trap)The difference between using a framework as a jumping-off point vs. following it blindlyHow to stress-test positioning docs, messaging frameworks, and battle cards before they blow upWhy your past experience is better than you think it isHow to know when something's off and actually do something about itThis is for anyone who's grabbed something from PMA, LinkedIn, or a book and thought: "Is this actually good, or am I just supposed to believe it is?" It's also the first episode of what might become something bigger with Talya, so stick around. Resources from this Episode Connect with Talya on LinkedInGet more resources + insight on the Down to a T websiteAnd a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp — where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Your sales team is frozen. It's 10 minutes before the call and they're Slack-panicking about competitor differences you've literally documented five different ways. The problem isn't the content — it's that static enablement turns into a black hole. Michele thinks that's exactly the wrong way to build for sales, and she's got a framework to prove it. In this episode she pulls back the curtain on what's actually broken with traditional sales enablement, the specific types of content that make LLMs useful instead of hallucination machines, and a three-by-three framework you can start using tomorrow morning to turn your PMM chaos into sales gold. Here's what we cover: Why your sales enablement is disappearing into a black hole (and how AI actually fixes it)The "high signal, low noise" documents that make LLMs actually work for your teamThe if-then objection vault: structuring your content so AI gives real answers (not roadmap BS)Four other content types PMMs skip that completely change the gameThe 3x3 framework: start tomorrow with three scary questions and three champion repsHow to stop your LLM from confidently lying (and keep your job in the process)Resources from this Episode: Access Michele's AI for PMM Sales Enablement Resource ToolConnect with Michele on LinkedInAnd a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp - where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Most PMMs pour everything into launch day. The website goes live, the campaign launches, and then everyone moves on to the next project. But Haidee thinks that's exactly where the real work begins—and where most teams are leaving insights on the table. Haidee's a PMM leader who's run launches at Amazon, Olo, and beyond. She's got a very specific point of view on what happens after Launch Day. And she's got the data to back it up. She told me: "If you're resource constrained, you need this process more than ever. You're repeating the same mistakes because you never actually document what happened." What is a post-product launch review? According to Haidee, it's not a verdict on the product or the launch—it's a checkpoint. Specifically, a structured 30-60-90 day review where your team answers three questions: What went well? What didn't? What should we do differently now and in the next launch? The real insight comes when you separate launch execution (did we get it out the door?) from product market fit (are customers actually using it?). A great launch can hide a product market fit problem. A bad launch can mask a really good product. That's why the checkpoint matters. Here's how Haidee approaches post-launch reviews: Step 1: Make it visible and mandatory from day one — Tell your team this is now part of your launch playbook. No skipping. Especially if you're resource constrained, you need this artifact to avoid repeating mistakes on the next launch.Step 2: Give everyone the three questions early — Document these before launch: What went well? What didn't? What should we do differently now and next time? Hand out blank paper during the launch so people can write things down as they happen.Step 3: Walk in with the right data — Customer reactions, adoption signals, customer conversations, Reddit feedback, sales data. Come prepared so no one's surprised by bad metrics in front of their peers (which triggers defensiveness).Step 4: Separate launch execution from product market fit — How did we get it out the door? How are customers seeing it? These are two different questions. Document your hypothesis early (what did you think would happen?) and test it against results.Step 5: Structure the room to reduce defensiveness — Start with "What surprised you about this launch?" Use open-ended questions. Frame it as auditing performance and building institutional knowledge, not judging people. Say "It's the process, not the people."Step 6: Use the hourglass approach if results are weak — Narrow focus to your most passionate customers. Understand why they're excited. Pattern match what's working with that small group, then expand. This lets you move faster than just killing the product. Resources Connect with Haidee on LinkedInBooks Haidee recommends: Range by David Epstein (understanding team diversity and influence) Thanks to PMM Camp — where product marketers build leadership range to move beyond execution and influence strategy.

Launching an AI product is hard. Launching agentic AI into financial services, healthcare, and insurance — where buyers are risk-averse, buying cycles are complex, and there's an AI governance committee whose entire job is to slow you down — is a different sport entirely. Sharon is living it right now, and she's got the playbook. Sharon is a PMM leader working at the intersection of frontier AI and heavily regulated enterprise industries. In this episode she breaks down what makes AI product launches fundamentally different, how to build internal conviction before you ever go to market, and why trust isn't just a talking point — it's the actual product you're selling. In this episode: Why launching AI into regulated industries is more education program than product launchHow to build a founding steering committee that gets go-to-market aligned before day oneThe new buying personas PMMs have never had to message to before — and how to reach themHow to separate real market signal from AI hype cyclesWhy trust is the product — and how to systematize it across every launchResources from this Episode Connect with Sharon on LinkedInAnd a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp  -  where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Most product launches have a brand awareness problem hiding underneath a content problem. You've got something worth talking about — but nobody's listening because you haven't built the audience yet. Devin has spent his career solving exactly that, one executive LinkedIn post at a time. Devin is a content strategist and executive ghostwriter who's worked with leadership teams at Gong, Clari, and beyond. In this episode he breaks down how to get your executive posting in support of a product launch — even if they've never posted before — what to ask before you write a single word, how to survive getting your draft shredded, and why a product launch is actually the perfect moment to start building executive presence. In this episode: Why a product launch is the perfect jumping-off point for an exec's first LinkedIn postThe three things to nail before you write a single word of launch contentHow to ghostwrite for an exec, survive the redline, and still ship something greatHow to maintain your edge on the basketball court... even as father time catches up with youResources from this Episode Connect with Devin on LinkedInGet on the list for Devin's weekly newsletterGrab Devin's LinkedIn Growth GuideAnd a special shout out to this season's sponsor, PMM Camp -  where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

If you've ever been handed a finished product and told to "do your marketing magic" — this episode is for you. Getting looped in at the last minute isn't just stressful, it's the root cause of almost every launch problem. Daria has spent her career building the systems to make sure PMM is never the last one to the party. Daria is a PMM leader who's built launch operations from the ground up across multiple organizations. In this episode she walks through exactly how to get embedded in the product development process early, how to build a go-to-market roadmap that runs parallel to the dev roadmap, and the internal partnership agreement she uses to get PM and PMM teams aligned before the chaos starts. In this episode: Why waiting until development is done is killing your launches before they startHow to get a seat in product roadmap planning — even if you've never been invitedThe internal partnership agreement — the one document that aligns PM and PMM from day oneA simple tiering framework for deciding tier one vs. tier two vs. tier three launchesHow to set success metrics before the launch — not afterResources from this Episode Connect with Daria on ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, ⁠⁠⁠⁠PMM Camp⁠⁠⁠⁠ -  where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.

Product launches are stressful. That part's unavoidable. But burnt out, joyless, and running on fumes by launch day? That part's optional — and Suz is here to fix it. Suz is a PMM leader and former Amazon social media veteran who's run launches ranging from global Prime Day to multi-SKU pricing overhauls. In this episode she breaks down how to build the kind of launch foundation that actually gives you room to have fun — why knowing your product cold is what unlocks creative freedom, how being yourself is a PMM superpower, and the creative exercise she borrowed from social media that makes messaging and positioning dramatically better. Here's what we get into: Why "knowing your product" and really knowing your sh*t are two very different thingsWhy trying to be buttoned-up and professional is killing your cross-functional relationshipsThe creative exercise that unlocks better messaging by writing the worst ideas firstThe pilot checklist philosophy and why even experienced PMMs need oneResources from this Episode Connect with Suz on ⁠⁠LinkedIn⁠⁠And a special shout out to this season's sponsor, ⁠⁠⁠⁠PMM Camp⁠⁠⁠⁠ -  where product marketers build leadership range so they can move beyond execution to influence decisions, shape strategy, and build a trusted team.