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Pastors build community for everyone else and often have none of their own. Clif and Sally get personal about loneliness in leadership and the hospital night that taught them the difference between suffering and trauma. They also explain why loving your dream of community can destroy the real thing.  In this episode  (00:00) Introduction (03:39) Body check-in and HALT-BS: hungry, angry, lonely, tired, bored, scared (11:17) CrossPoint value, Community: We live and lead together, bearing witness to God's love and God's image (12:09) Leadership as a shield from vulnerability (15:22) Laurel's heart surgery: suffering versus trauma (23:48) The dream of community versus the real thing (32:03) Clif's STEPS group (33:47) Admired but not enjoyed Books mentioned  ● Truly the Community, Marva J. Dawn  ● Life Together, Dietrich Bonhoeffer  ● The Safest Place on Earth, Larry Crabb ● The Four Loves, C.S. Lewis  ● Steps, John Ortberg  From CrossPoint  ● STEPS Group for Pastors: a weekly, confidential group for men in ministry Also mentioned  ● Sally's blog post about Laurel's heart surgery  Scripture  Romans 12; 1 Timothy 4:16; James 5:16; Revelation 7:9  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Hospitality isn't frozen cookies and a tidy front room. Clif and Sally tell the story of a neighbor who asked for a glass of water every day for a whole summer, explain why welcoming others without margin leads to burnout, and offer permission for the seasons when it's your turn to be hosted.  Chapters: (00:00) Introduction (01:08) Choose-your-own check-in, plus three ways to check in: body scan, eight feelings, brain dump (06:47) CrossPoint value, Hospitality: We welcome people with intentionality and generosity, as we have been welcomed by Christ (08:29) A feast in the presence of my enemies (11:49) Holiness as God's devotion (18:33) Ronnie and the glass of water (22:13) Hospitality is not a performance (26:21) Generosity means "of noble birth" (28:05) The hot dog story (36:50) Maybe it's your turn to be hosted Books mentioned  ● Reaching Out, Henri Nouwen  ● Unreasonable Hospitality, Will Guidara ● The Rule of Saint Benedict, Saint Benedict  From CrossPoint  ● Counseling and coaching intensives  Also mentioned  ● The Bear, Season 2 (FX)  ● Dr. Peter J. Gentry, "No One Holy Like the Lord," Midwestern Journal of Theology 12.1 (2013). Read the SBTS summary.  Scripture  Psalm 23:5; Psalm 91:4; Psalm 16:6; 1 Corinthians 13:1 to 3; Hebrews 13:2; Matthew 7:9 to 11; 1 Timothy 4:16  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Clif and Sally rethink competence in ministry. They talk about why real wisdom grows in relationship, the year Sally stopped reading books and heard God say "you have enough," and curiosity as reserving judgment just long enough to learn something new.  In this episode  (00:00) Introduction (00:49) Mind check-in (04:28) We love you for who you are, but can you help me? (06:58) The conference no one would attend (10:56) Competence grows in relationship (15:08) Rock what you got (16:04) Sally's year of "You have enough" (20:41) Curiosity: reserving judgment just long enough to learn something new (25:30) O Sapientia read aloud Books mentioned  ● Loving to Know, Esther Lightcap Meek  ● A Little Manual for Knowing, Esther Lightcap Meek  ● Waiting on the Word, Malcolm Guite  From CrossPoint  ● Soul Care Institute  Scripture  Genesis 3; Romans 12:3 to 5; Psalm 139:14  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Soul work is slow work. Clif and Sally reflect on staying patient (and staying patients), the pain that forms us, and why the Good Shepherd walks beside you instead of driving you from behind.  In this episode  (00:00) Introduction (01:44) Soul check-in: How do you see God seeing you? (06:23) The 30-Day Senses/Gratitude Journal (08:17) Patient parking only (14:10) Hinds' Feet on High Places and the companions Sorrow and Suffering (19:36) Jim Cofield's one-word answer: pain (21:58) Journey as a river (28:35) He's not a cowboy (35:11) What got me to 44 won't get me to 88 Books mentioned  ● A Long Obedience in the Same Direction, Eugene Peterson  ● Hinds' Feet on High Places, Hannah Hurnard  ● Thoughts in Solitude, Thomas Merton  From CrossPoint  ● 30-Day Senses/Gratitude Journal  ● Deeper Journey: a two-year, eight-retreat spiritual formation community in Madison, Indiana  ● Soul Care Institute: CrossPoint's two-year soul care training  Also mentioned  ● The Prayer of Saint Patrick  ● The soul check-in question comes from David Benner  Scripture  Exodus 33:15; Psalm 23; Galatians 5:22 to 23; 2 Corinthians 3:16 to 18 (The Message); Lamentations 3:22 to 23  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Over breakfast, a mentor told Clif that the best gift you can give anyone is your transformed and transforming presence. He nearly fell out of his chair. Clif and Sally talk about the people who showed up for them, and why you can't be present to others while you're absent from yourself.  In this episode  (00:00) Introduction (01:20) Heart check-in using Chip Dodd's eight feelings (07:45) People who were present to us: Vicki and Pauline (14:04) The breakfast with Jim Cofield (19:46) You're winning if you're present (22:33) Who are you, and what have you lived? (35:13) Relational bids: I want you Books mentioned  ● The Relational Soul, Richard Plass and James Cofield  ● The Voice of the Heart, Chip Dodd  From CrossPoint  ● Counseling and coaching intensives: two to three days of focused care for pastors, couples, and ministry leaders  ● The Relational Soul is available in the CrossPoint shop  Also mentioned  ● "Present to the presence in the present," a phrase Clif and Sally credit to John Ortberg Scripture  Psalm 16; John 1; 1 John 1:1; Matthew 22:37 to 39  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Your limits aren't a result of the fall. They were part of God's very good design. Clif and Sally explore embracing your humanity with honesty and hope, and why ordinariness is the gravity that keeps leaders grounded for the long haul.  In this episode  (00:00) Introduction (01:34) Body check-in: why your body matters to your spirituality (05:23) CrossPoint value, Ordinary: We embrace our humanity with honesty and hope (09:32) Limits were part of God's original design (21:27) Peter and the rooster: the best place he'd been in a long time (26:47) The honesty and hope axes (29:30) Thoroughbreds, burnout, and margin Books mentioned  ● A Theology of the Ordinary, Julie Canlis  ● Liturgy of the Ordinary, Tish Harrison Warren  ● The Body Keeps the Score, Bessel van der Kolk  Also mentioned  ● Thomas Merton: "Pride makes us artificial; humility makes us real"  ● "Gravity," John Mayer (song)  Scripture  Genesis 1 to 3; Romans 12:1 (The Message)  About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help.  If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Research shows that about 90% of pastors encourage their people to get counseling, but only 9% seek it out for themselves. Clif and Sally share why they started this show, where the name came from, and why every pastor out-teaches what they can live. In this episode (00:00) Introduction (03:29) Where the name came from: a 1984 book and Paul's words to Timothy (06:29) Seminary teaches you how to do ministry, not what ministry will do to you (13:35) The pastor is often the least self-aware person in the church (16:51) Confession as agreeing with God about yourself (18:15) Who this show is for (21:09) A preview of Season One and CrossPoint's six values Books mentioned ● Pastor as Person, Gary L. Harbaugh Also mentioned ● Lifeway Research, "Pastors Have Increasingly Complicated Relationship With Counseling" (July 2025) ● The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill podcast, Christianity Today (mentioned) Scripture 1 Timothy 4:16; Romans 12:3 About CrossPoint: CrossPoint has advocated for the relational health and resilience of pastors and Christian leaders for over 30 years. Learn more at crosspointministry.com. Carrying something heavy? You don't have to carry it alone. Connect with us and let us know how we can help. If this episode helped, follow the show and send it to one pastor or leader who would benefit. Until next time, keep a close watch on yourself. You're worth watching.

Seminary teaches you how to do ministry. It doesn't teach you what the ministry will do to you.  The Pastor as Person is a soul-care conversation for pastors, ministry leaders, pastors' spouses and families, and anyone who loves a pastor. Hosts Clif and Sally Roth have been married more than 20 years and lead CrossPoint Ministry, which has cared for pastors for three decades. This  show is less a lecture and more a seat at their table. As Clif puts it, they share a home, then sit down at a table with microphones and talk about life.  Each episode opens with a simple check-in on body, heart, mind, or soul. Then comes honest, unscripted conversation about burnout, limits, loneliness, spiritual formation, and what it means to be a whole person in a demanding role. You'll hear stories from their marriage, their own ministry, and 15 years of walking with pastors through hard seasons, along with the people, books, and prayers that have shaped them.  It's not a harsh mirror. It's a soft place to land and a safe place to tell the truth.  The show takes its heart from Paul's words to Timothy: keep a close watch on yourself. Because God made you, and you're worth watching.