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Harry interviews Alex Nesic of Bingo Tech about the company's pivot from battery swapping for two- and three-wheelers to a purpose-built electric ride-hail vehicle, the Bingo E2, driven by fleet demand in markets like South Africa and Kenya. Bingo's roots include a large-scale battery-swapping platform in China and a white-label swapping and fleet software platform deployed internationally. The E2 is an L7e-class vehicle with a 31 kWh main battery (~350 km range), optional four handheld swappable batteries (+150 km), and DC fast charging (20–80% in ~40 minutes), designed for rugged, connected fleet use and grid instability. They discuss driver economics, lower total cost of ownership via cheaper electricity, upcoming Nairobi pilots and Q3 shipments, and a "Cloud Fleet" program letting buyers reserve and purchase E2s ($12,000) to generate revenue through managed deployments, plus an AI call-in assistant, Maya. 0:00 Intro to RSG269 with Alex Nesic of Bingo Tech 00:32 Who Is Alex Nesic? 01:41 How Did Bingo Start? 05:32 Why Did Bingo Build The E2? 09:01 How Do The Driver Economics Work? 11:46 Why Is Africa Such A Big Market? 14:13 What Grid Challenges Exist? 15:59 How Does The Dual Battery System Work? 18:09 How Do Charging And Battery Swaps Work? 22:14 How Did Bingo Go From Prototype To Production? 23:49 What Is The Cloud Fleet Program? 29:08 How Are Insurance And Risk Handled? 30:43 What Is Maya AI Hotline? 32:03 How Will AVs Work In Emerging Markets? 33:57 Who Are The Competitors And Could It Work In The US? 37:01 Final Thoughts And Wrap Up   Bingo Tech: https://www.bingotech.io/ Alex's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-nesic

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Omar Zoubi, VP of Autonomous Mobility & Rideshare Network Strategy at TaskUs. Omar breaks down how TaskUs supports autonomous vehicle operators behind the scenes, from remote assistance to handling edge cases that today's AI systems still struggle to navigate. We get into TaskUs' role across the AV ecosystem, including who they partner with and how their human-in-the-loop model helps fleets operate safely and scale more efficiently. Omar explains the types of real-world scenarios where AVs need intervention, how those interventions feed back into improving AI systems, and what it takes to support different types of fleets with varying operational needs. The conversation also covers the current stage of the AV industry, including how companies like Waymo are approaching remote assistance and safety, and what challenges emerge as fleets grow. We discuss operational complexity, cost structures, and how companies think about cost per mile as they move toward commercialization. Finally, Omar shares his perspective on where TaskUs adds the most value today, how the human-in-the-loop model will evolve over time, and what the future of the AV industry looks like as autonomy matures. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Omar Zoubi and TaskUs (03:19) TaskUs' domain of operation (03:30) TaskUs' AV business model, and their partners (04:43) What services does TaskUs provide to its AV clients? (06:10) How does TaskUs' assistance in edge cases help AV clients improve their AI? (07:53) Common scenarios where AV companies might need remote assistance, and how TaskUs helps. (09:30) Differences between supporting different AV fleets (10:41) How Omar thinks about Waymo's remote assistance and safety (12:40) What stage of the AV industry are we in? (14:19) Biggest operational challenges as AV fleets start to scale (15:46) Common traits across operators and companies in the AV industry (17:00) How the human-in-the-loop model will evolve as AVs mature (19:05) How do you plan for unpredictable scenarios, like the recent SF blackout? (21:38) How AV operational costs are distributed and cost per mile (23:10) Where does TaskUs offer the biggest value or opportunity for AV companies? (24:00) What does the future of the AV industry look like? (25:43) Conclusions and final thoughts Notes/Links: You can find Omar Zoubi on Linkedin. TaskUs website (link). Learn how TaskUs supports AV operations in their case study (link).

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Ashu Rege, Vice President of DoorDash Labs at DoorDash. Ashu shares his journey through the autonomous vehicle industry, including roles at NVIDIA and Zoox, before leading autonomy efforts within one of the largest delivery platforms in the world. We dive into what drew him to DoorDash Labs and how the team is thinking about autonomy differently from robotaxi companies. Ashu explains the origins of DoorDash's delivery robot DOT, the goals of the DoorDash Labs, and how their Autonomous Delivery Platform (ADP) is designed to support a wide range of delivery modalities. The conversation explores what makes autonomous delivery fundamentally different from human delivery, how mature DoorDash's delivery solutions are today, and the different categories of autonomy DoorDash is pursuing. We also get into the economics of autonomous delivery and the unique problems autonomy is best suited to solve in delivery. Ashu breaks down how DOT operates in the real world, including its limitations and where it stands out the most. Finally, we look ahead to what's next for DoorDash and DoorDash Labs' autonomy efforts over the coming year, including how the company is balancing partnerships with in‑house development. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Ashu Rege (02:47) Ashu's background in the AV industry (Nvidia, Zoox, and DoorDash). (04:30) What excited Ashu about joining DoorDash Labs, and its autonomy goals. (05:43) The story behind the creation of DOT and its perks (08:23) The goal of DoorDash Labs and what they do (09:18) DoorDash Labs' Autonomous Delivery Platform (ADP) explained. (10:34) One key difference between an autonomous delivery solution and a human. (11:52) How commercially mature are DoorDash's autonomous delivery solutions? (12:54) DoorDash's autonomous delivery categories, and how they compare to each other. (14:29) Why is now the right time to scale autonomy in delivery, and how autonomous delivery differs from robotaxis. (18:30) How DoorDash approaches the balance between partnering and building autonomous delivery solutions in-house. (23:31) How autonomous deliveries compare to human deliveries in cost, and the unique problem autonomous deliveries solve. (25:20) How autonomous deliveries work using DOT, its limitations, and where it stands out. (35:11) What to expect from DoorDash and DoorDash Labs over the next year in autonomy. (36:52) Conclusions and final thoughts Notes/Links: You can find Ashu on LinkedIn. DOT is DoorDash's first in-house autonomous delivery robot. You can find more info about it here (link). DoorDash Labs is DoorDash's robotics and automation arm. You can find more info about them on their website (link). Open roles at DoorDash Labs (link). -Harry

In today's episode, I'm speaking with Shao (Pat) Tsen, Deputy Executive Director for Consumer Policy, Transportation, and Enforcement at the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC). We start with an overview of the CPUC and Pat's role in it. We also break down the split between the CPUC and DMV, clarifying who regulates what, and what companies actually need to do to launch an autonomous vehicle service in California, including the different permit types required along the way. Pat explains the CPUC's technology-agnostic approach to AV regulation, and why Tesla's current robotaxi deployment isn't considered an autonomous vehicle service under CPUC jurisdiction. We then dig into what it really takes to secure an AV permit, and whether the approval process is more subjective or objective in practice. The conversation also covers enforcement, reporting, and data collection requirements for AV companies, including new stoppage event reporting rules and what data is ultimately made public. We also get into how the CPUC approaches transparency, accountability, and the balance between innovation and public safety—and where its regulatory oversight starts to reach its limits. Chapters (00:00) Introduction to Shao (Pat) Tsen (03:34) Introduction to the CPUC and their areas of regulation (05:03) Pat's role at the CPUC (08:37) CPUC vs DMV: Who Regulates What? (10:54) Steps to launching an autonomous vehicle service in California—and the different types of permits (14:05) The CPUC's technology-agnostic role in AV regulation (15:05) Why Tesla's robotaxi isn't considered an autonomous vehicle service in California (18:35) What it takes to get an AV permit from the CPUC (21:35) Is the CPUC's AV permit approval process more subjective or objective? (24:55) Enforcement, reporting, and data collection for AV companies under the CPUC's jurisdiction (30:21) What autonomous vehicle companies currently have to report to the CPUC, including new stoppage event requirements (32:45) What AV company data is made publicly available? (37:10) How the CPUC handles new edge cases and teleoperations (41:44) Limits of the CPUC's oversight (43:00) Conclusions and final thoughts Notes/Links: You can find Pat on Linkedin. Relevant links for the CPUC's AV program Decision and resolution numbers which set rules or approved new authority to operate D.18-05-043 aka the "Pilot Decision," created the AV Pilot program and set requirements for participants D.20-11-046 as modified by D.21-05-017 aka the "Deployment Decision," created AV Deployment program and set the requirements for participants D.24-11-002 aka the AV Data Decision, expanded AV data reporting requirements including incident reporting and "stoppage event" reporting R.-25-08-013 (OIR opened August 2025) – the new AV rulemaking to update policies/processes/rules for AV passenger transportation General Order (GO) 157-E: TCP Regulations Resolutions: Resolution TL-19144 (2023) – approved Waymo for Phase I Driverless AV Passenger Service Deployment Resolution TL-19145 (2023) – approved Cruise (Phase 1 driverless deployment authorization) AV Program Quarterly Reporting (link). To file a complaint, you can fill out this form Passenger complaint form and email to [email protected] To submit a public comment in the ongoing AV rulemaking, as mentioned at the 41:25 timestamp, you can access the public comment tab here R2508013 -Harry

In this episode, Hansu Kim, CEO of Flywheel Technologies, shares insights on the evolving taxi industry, Flywheel's innovative partnerships, and the impact of autonomous vehicles (AVs). With over 20 years of experience in transportation policy, Kim discusses Flywheel's rebranding, its strategic Uber partnership to integrate taxi services, and the regulatory changes required. He highlights the mutual benefits of the Uber-taxi collaboration, including increased ride efficiency and higher driver incomes. Kim also explores the future interplay between traditional taxis, AVs, and the rideshare industry's continuous transformation. 0:00 Intro to RSG268 with Hansu Kim, CEO of Flywheel Technologies 0:32 Who Is Hansu Kim and What Is Flywheel Taxi? 1:08 How Are Flywheel and Uber Partnering? 2:03 How Does This Partnership Affect the Taxi Industry? 2:42 What Regulatory Changes Shape the Consumer Experience? 4:00 What Are the Economic Benefits for Drivers and Companies? 5:31 How Is Technology Being Adopted in the Taxi Industry? 6:32 What Is the Future of Taxi and Rideshare Collaboration? 8:32 How Does Flywheel's Business Model Work? 11:30 What Are the Challenges and Benefits of the Partnership? 19:57 How Do Consumers Choose and What Influences Safety Perception? 24:12 What Is Uber's Strategy for Autonomous Vehicles? 24:51 How Is Waymo Partnering with Ride-Sharing Services? 26:14 What Are the Main Criticisms of Autonomous Vehicles? 26:58 How Are Partnerships Supporting Riders With Disabilities? 28:16 What Does the Future of the Taxi Industry Look Like? 29:38 How Will Autonomous Vehicles Impact Taxi Services? 36:08 How Can the Industry Prepare for an Autonomous Future? 40:11 What Innovations Are Shaping Taxi Technology? 42:45 What Are the Final Thoughts on Waymo and Autonomous Vehicles?   Flywheel: https://www.flywheel.com/ Flywheel's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/flywheeltech/ Hansu Kim's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hansu-kim-b6b30b2/

In this episode, Dawood Milan, founder of Auto Marketplace, discusses the intricacies and the significance of New York City's Taxi and Limousine Commission (TLC) market. He provides insights into his career transition from finance to managing a successful Uber Black fleet and eventually founding Auto Marketplace. Dawood explains the unique regulations and economic value of the NYC TLC market, the challenges and opportunities it presents, particularly with regard to vehicle caps, insurance, and driver pay. He explores the future of autonomous vehicles (AV) in this competitive and complex market, touching on regulatory hurdles, potential business models, and the challenges posed by New York's unique urban environment. Dawood emphasizes the importance of regulatory acumen and market adaptability for new entrants like Waymo. 0:00 Intro 00:32 Who is Dawood and what is Auto Marketplace? 01:23 What makes the NYC TLC market unique? 04:50 How did Uber and Lyft impact NYC taxis? 07:21 What's the current state of NYC rideshare and taxis? 13:22 How do business models work in NYC rideshare? 16:30 What is Dawood's fleet and strategy? 18:40 What challenges and opportunities exist in the TLC market? 23:02 Why are TLC plates valuable and transferable? 24:29 How does TLC plate value change over time? 24:43 Is Waymo entering the NYC market? 25:25 What are the regulatory and business model hurdles? 26:49 How are drivers and medallion owners affected? 30:23 How do fleet management and real estate intersect? 37:08 What are the key tech and environmental challenges? 39:54 What's the future of autonomous vehicles in NYC? 43:14 What are the final thoughts?   Dawood's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dawoodmian/ Automarketplace: https://automarketplace.substack.com/ X: https://x.com/automarketplc

In this episode, Harry interviews Daniel and Andres Munoz, co-founders of Tower Mobility. They discuss their extensive backgrounds in global strategy, operations, and last-mile logistics, as well as how they launched Tower Mobility during the pandemic with a focus on wheelchair accessible vehicles. The conversation delves into Tower Mobility's operational model, including its fleet of over 600 vehicles, primarily electric, and workforce of 2,000 W2 employees. Key topics include their partnerships with Uber and Waymo, the advantages and challenges of managing a large EV fleet, and how they are preparing for an autonomous vehicle future. The episode wraps up with insights on safety training, driver coaching, and the potential for human-powered services in the evolving mobility market. Check out Terawatt here for more information: https://www.terawattinfrastructure.com/   0:00 Who are the founders of Tower Mobility and how did the company begin? 02:59 How did Tower Mobility get started during the pandemic? 04:13 What is the W2 driver model and how does it work? 06:43 What types of drivers does Tower Mobility recruit and how do they find them? 13:27 How does Tower Mobility partner with Uber? 20:00 What safety and insurance measures are in place? 21:38 Why is adhering to speed limits so important? 22:16 How does the hourly pay model compare to being an independent contractor? 23:16 What are the main challenges of managing a fleet? 26:28 How are electric vehicles being used in fleet operations? 28:41 What cost benefits come with electric vehicles? 32:18 What does the charging infrastructure for EV fleets look like? 34:07 How might autonomous vehicles shape the future of fleet management? 39:20 What are the final thoughts and takeaways from the discussion?   Daniel's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-munoz-gmvp/ Andres' LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andres-munoz-0278926/

In this episode, Harry interviews Jeremy Bird, Executive Vice President of Driver Experience at Lyft, about Lyft's recent global expansion and the strategic acquisition of Free Now. Bird discusses Lyft's growth into international markets, beginning with Canada and Puerto Rico, and highlights the benefits of partnering with Free Now, a prominent taxi app operating in nine European countries. They delve into the regulatory differences between the US and European markets, the similarities in driver ethos between Lyft and Free Now, and the potential synergies from combining their technologies and experiences. The conversation also covers the significance of Lyft's operations in Canada and its micro-mobility solutions, such as bike and scooter sharing, and how these ventures align with Lyft's overall strategy, including the future integration of autonomous vehicles.   00:00 Introduction to Jeremy Bird and Lyft's expansion 01:05 How has Lyft's expansion into Canada and Puerto Rico been? 02:33 What is Lyft's strategic shift to global markets? 05:19 What is Free Now and what are its operations? 07:34 How do Europe and US taxi industries compare? 10:34 What are the synergies and future plans for Lyft and Free Now? 14:33 What is Lyft's global expansion strategy? 15:38 How is Lyft's market penetration in Europe? 15:52 What are the regulatory challenges and labor relations? 17:17 What are the opportunities in the European market? 21:15 How is Lyft's growth in Canada? 23:50 How has Lyft been integrating micro-mobility solutions? 27:32 What are Lyft's plans for autonomous vehicles? 29:20 Conclusion and Future Prospects   Jeremy's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-bird-6a03aa11

In this episode, Harry speaks with Will Coleman, CEO and Co-Founder of Alto, an innovative rideshare and delivery service emphasizing safety, hospitality, and consistency. Will discusses Alto's operations in multiple U.S. cities, their unique business model involving employed drivers and owned vehicles, and their strategic focus on fleet management as a foundation for electric and autonomous mobility. Most importantly, the conversation delves into Alto's newest partnership with Uber, the complexities of fleet management, and the differentiation factors contributing to their success, such as lower insurance costs and high service quality. Will also touches on the benefits and challenges of scaling, and shares insights on the future of autonomous vehicles in the rideshare industry. 00:00 - Introduction to Will Coleman and Alto 01:09 - Will's alternate bio and podcast introduction 02:57 - Alto's unique business model 04:06 - Challenges of fleet management 08:54 - Partnership with Uber 16:18 - Benefits of Alto's model for Uber 21:56 - Unique experience in the rideshare industry 23:30 - Challenges and solutions in fleet management 27:14 - The Alto Fleet and electrification 29:25 - Potential Downsides of the Partnership 34:00 - Alto's Place in the Autonomous Vehicle Market 38:25 - Alto's reaction to the Waymo Business 40:46 - Future Plans and Closing Remarks Alto: https://ridealto.com Will Coleman's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/will-coleman RSG179: Redefining Rideshare with Alto RSG203: An Update on Alto Harry's Newsletter: The Driverless Digest

In this episode, Harry speaks with Jeremy Bird, the Executive Vice President of Driver Experience at Lyft. They discuss Jeremy's role and responsibilities, including his focus on autonomous vehicles (AV) and their integration into Lyft's services. Jeremy emphasizes the importance of having an open and honest conversation about the impact of AVs on human drivers, highlighting the potential for a hybrid future where both AVs and human-driven cars coexist. He mentions Lyft's upcoming partnership with May Mobility to introduce AVs on the platform and stresses the need for economic mobility and support for drivers. The conversation also covers Lyft's commitment to driver earnings, transparency, and new initiatives like an enhanced rewards program and opportunities for drivers to advance or transition in their careers. Jeremy asserts that while AVs may bring changes, the goal is to grow the overall market and improve the driver and rider experience. 00:30 Intros 2:13 What is Lyft's main focus right now? 5:00 Should drivers be worried about AVs? 7:07 What has Waymo's growth been like? 10:04 How will Lyft assist drivers with the rise of AVs? 13:15 Will humans be an option in the future? 17:40 Are humans in competition with AVs? 25:06 Will drivers earn less money because of AVs? 29:29 Will driving for Lyft get better or worse in the future? 31:20 What is causing Lyft's success? 34:53 How does Lyft compare with Uber? 38:48 Where to find Jeremy https://www.lyft.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeremy-bird-6a03aa11/ https://x.com/jeremybird

In this episode, Harry speaks with Justin Pappan, founder of EV Access, who discusses the inception and growth of his electric vehicle rental service based in Phoenix, Arizona. Three years since its founding, EV Access caters to both visitors and Uber drivers, offering flexible rental options and a focus on customer service. The conversation covers Justin's experiences as a Tesla owner, the operational challenges and strategies of managing an EV fleet, and the company's future plans, including preparation for autonomous vehicle integration. Justin also delves into the insurance and financial aspects of fleet management, the advantages of Tesla's technology in tracking and maintenance, and innovative marketing tactics. Lastly, he touches on the potential for partnerships and the importance of being prepared for the shift to driverless vehicles. EV Access: https://evaccess.io/ Justin Pappan's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-pappan/ 00:30 Introduction to Justin Pappan and EV Access 00:51 Personal Connection and Tesla Experience 01:40 Challenges and Solutions in EV Rentals 02:34 Business Model and Future Plans 03:42 Fleet Details and Market Strategies 06:27 Operational Insights and Customer Education 17:25 Financial Strategies and Vehicle Partnerships 24:47 Advice and Industry Insights 26:18 The Challenges of Creating Authentic Content 26:45 The Value of Real-World Experience in Online Courses 29:06 Navigating the Car Rental Market 30:45 Effective Marketing Tactics for Fleet Owners 33:51 The Importance of Diversifying Platforms 41:17 Tools and Strategies for Fleet Management 42:21 Insurance Challenges in the Ride-Share Industry 45:57 Preparing for an Autonomous Vehicle Future 50:06 Conclusion and Contact Information Listen to these podcasts mentioned in the show: RSG261: EV Fleet Charging With Bluedot - Martin Hamedani: https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/therideshareguy/id/32888257 RSG139: Ed Walker on Managing Insurance for Shared Mobility Operators: https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/show/therideshareguy/id/15512057

In this episode, Harry interviews Garrett Wood, the founder and CEO of GetScale. Garrett discusses how GetScale uses one-on-one conversations combined with proprietary data and technology to recruit and motivate individuals for gig economy roles. He shares his extensive experience from his time at Uber, where he helped build and scale the first driver recruiting team. The conversation delves into the challenges and strategies of driver acquisition, onboarding, and conversion, including the importance of motivation and real conversations. Garrett also covers the operational details of GetScale's services and how they enhance recruitment processes for large gig economy businesses. Garrett's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrettscottwood/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/get-scale/ https://www.getscale.com/ 00:32 Introduction to Garrett Wood and GetScale 02:51 Garrett's Journey at Uber 05:06 Challenges and Strategies in Driver Recruitment 07:43 The Role of Motivation in Driver Conversion 12:50 GetScale's Approach to Recruitment 19:42 Tactical Insights for Gig Economy Companies 34:05 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In this episode, Harry interviews Martin Hamadani, Vice President of Partnerships at Blue Dot. Martin discusses his role in leading the commercial and growth efforts for Blue Dot's B2B fleet business, highlighting his extensive experience in scaling startups and business development. They delve into Blue Dot's solutions for public and home charging for EV fleets, focusing on the integration of various public chargers into a single platform for ease of use. Martin also explains Blue Dot's value propositions for corporate fleets, gig drivers, and rental companies, emphasizing the importance of a unified EV charging experience. Topics include the benefits and challenges of EV adoption, the impact of Tesla's supercharging network, and strategies for fleet management. Martin concludes by sharing insights on the company's engagement at trade shows and future plans. 00:32 Introduction to Martin Hamadani and Blue Dot 01:14 The Evolution of Blue Dot's EV Solutions 03:53 Addressing Public Charging Challenges 06:34 Home Charging Solutions for Fleets 9:22 EV Charging for Rideshare Drivers 17:06 Tesla vs. Non-Tesla EVs in Fleets 22:33 Charging Flexibility and Costs 24:21 Fleet Owners and Corporate Partnerships 26:47 Exploring Car Sharing and Rentals 36:18 Challenges and Best Practices for Fleet EV Adoption 40:50 Conclusion and Contact Information Martin's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/martinhamedani/

In this episode Harry speaks with Kathryn Webster. Kathryn is an associate at KKR, a global investment firm investing across private markets in every asset class all over the world. She is also the founder of Together Achieving Dreams Foundation, bridging the gap between potential and possibility for the blind and low vision. 0:00 Intros 3:48 How should riders refer to blind passengers? 5:33 What is it like calling a ride as a blind person? 12:09 How should service animals be referred to? 16:58 What questions can you ask regarding service dogs? 22:37 What should a driver do if they are scared of dogs? 28:11 What does Kathryn think of fake service dogs? Links/references from the show: Kathryn's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathryncornellwebster/ Lyft's Anti-Discrimination Policies: https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/all/articles/115012923767-Anti-Discrimination-Policies Lyft's Service Animal Policy: https://help.lyft.com/hc/en-us/all/articles/115013080048-Service-animal-policy Downloadable Policy Copy Service Animal FAQ and Policy: https://assets.ctfassets.net/ecaxsf5u3xse/37rxua7DcxdyiAPFyVNN2s/3acbe37181e66fe3744f98ef1d3853c2/Service_Animal_Policy.pdf 3-Minute How-To Service Animals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SppA9cmanfY Service Animal Hotline: 1-844-554-1297 for direct phone support

In this episode Harry speaks with Maria. Maria is the VP/MG of Gig at Getaround, the world's leading connected carsharing platform, on a mission toward empowering people to carshare everywhere. Maria's LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-briskman-ba7802138/ 0:00 1:30 What is the joint between Getaround and HyreCar? 7:49 How can this partnership benefit drivers? 10:11 What markets is this available in? 14:57 What has Maria observed about successful drivers? 21:00 What's it like to be a renter or an owner? 23:40 What are some new things coming? 27:00 Are renters or owners more in demand?