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The Therapist as Expert Witness: Standard of Care, Objectivity, and Staying in Your Role - An Interview with Nicol Stolar-Peterson, PsyD, LCSW, BCD Nicol Stolar-Peterson, PsyD, LCSW, BCD on expert witness work for therapists, standard of care, and court roles. Curt and Katie talk with Nicol, a national expert witness in child abuse, child protective services, and clinical social work, about what it takes for therapists to do this kind of work. The conversation grew out of Curt's first experience as a defense expert in a licensing board complaint, when he turned to Nicol to help him prepare. Nicol explains how fact witness and expert roles differ, why treating therapists should be cautious when invited to testify as experts, and why standard of care means what a reasonable therapist would do rather than best practice. She also describes staying objective with attorneys trained to persuade, and what records review, reports, and depositions look like in real cases. A useful listen for therapists curious about expert witness work, clinicians who may be called to testify, and anyone who wants to understand how standard of care gets evaluated in licensing board and civil cases. In this episode, we discuss: - What makes a therapist a strong expert witness, including the ability to explain expertise in plain language - Where therapists find expert work, from child custody evaluations to records review - How fact witness and expert roles differ, and why treating therapists should stay in their lane - Why standard of care means reasonable, basic practice rather than best practice - How experts stay objective when attorneys push for a particular opinion - What records review, reports, and depositions look like in a typical case Timestamps: 05:30 - What makes a good expert witness 09:11 - Where therapists find expert work 13:49 - Fact witness, expert witness, and testifying expert roles 22:06 - Standard of care: bronze versus gold 24:30 - Staying objective with attorneys 33:39 - Scheduling and what a typical case involves 37:23 - Depositions, settlements, and trials Guest Bio: Nicol Stolar-Peterson, PsyD, LCSW, BCD is a national expert witness in child abuse, child protective services, and clinical social work. She co-founded and runs Kids Court & Counseling Center, a nonprofit that helps children who are victims of crimes and abuse prepare for court testimony. She also provides therapy, trains new social workers, and offers mandated reporting trainings. Learn more at www.nicolstolar.com. Full show notes and transcript: https://mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Why Is It So Hard for Therapists to Delegate? Letting Go of Control Over Scheduling, Billing, and Bookkeeping - An Interview with Bibi Goldstein Bibi Goldstein of Buying Time on why therapists struggle to delegate, and how automation and online scheduling help. Curt and Katie talk with Bibi Goldstein, founder of Buying Time, LLC, about why so many therapists keep doing their own scheduling, billing, bookkeeping, and social media long after it stops making sense. Bibi has spent nearly 20 years helping business owners delegate and automate, and in her experience, the resistance usually comes down to control. Bibi shares how to choose practice systems and software you can grow into, why delegating to software counts as delegating, and how online scheduling and automation can bring in new and returning clients while still protecting your calendar. She also walks through her simple happy face/sad face exercise for deciding what to delegate first. This is a useful conversation for private practice therapists, group practice owners, and anyone who knows they should hand off admin work but hasn't yet. In this episode, we discuss: - Why therapists get emotionally attached to scheduling, billing, bookkeeping, and social media - How to choose practice systems your private practice can grow into - Why automation and software count as delegation, even if you can't hire staff - How the happy face/sad face exercise shows you what to delegate first - How online scheduling brings in new and returning therapy clients - How booking limits and buffers keep automation within your boundaries - How delegating frees up time for income like paid speaking Timestamps: - 02:57 - What therapists get wrong when setting up practice systems - 06:20 - Decision paralysis and getting guidance before you choose software - 09:48 - How AI and automation have changed delegation - 13:47 - Technology-shy therapists and the superbill story - 18:27 - The admin tasks therapists are most emotionally attached to - 22:24 - The happy face/sad face exercise: what to delegate first - 25:33 - Delegation that helps therapists make more money - 28:00 - How online scheduling brings in clients - 30:55 - Keeping control of your calendar with limits and buffers Guest Bio: Bibi Goldstein is the founder of Buying Time, LLC, a virtual support company that helps therapists, entrepreneurs, and small businesses streamline operations through systems, automation, and time management strategies. A systems expert and productivity consultant with multiple software certifications, she is co-author of Get Organized Today, Navigating Entrepreneurship, and Business Success with Ease, and serves as Chair of the Board of the Redondo Beach Chamber of Commerce. Learn more at buyingtimellc.com. Full show notes and transcript: https://mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Private Practice Has Changed. Now What? How Therapists Can Find Clients and Stay Profitable - An Interview with Dr. Ajita Robinson, LCPC Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT talk with Dr. Ajita Robinson, LCPC, on how private practice has changed and how therapists can find clients and stay profitable. Caseloads are thinning, insurance panels and directories send fewer referrals, and venture-backed platforms can book a new client by tomorrow. Yet demand for mental health care is as high as it has ever been. Curt and Katie welcome back Dr. Ajita Robinson, LCPC, grief and trauma therapist and CEO of Legacy Wellness Group, to talk about what has changed in private practice and what therapists can do now. Dr. Robinson explains why the private practice model most therapists started with no longer works the same way, and why a wait-and-see approach leaves therapists behind. She shares how to find the referral and revenue data already sitting in your intake process, how to build referral partnerships with primary care and other trusted providers, and how therapists can diversify income through government, employer, and EAP contracts. If you have been wondering whether it's just you, this conversation offers a clear picture of the market and practical next steps for staying profitable in private practice. In this episode, we discuss: - Why fast scheduling and intake automation help you compete with therapy platforms - How your intake forms and call logs reveal where your practice is losing clients - How referral partnerships with pediatricians and primary care helped one practice grow from 1 location to 18 - Why diversifying income through state, federal, and employer contracts protects your practice - How therapists can use psychoeducation, consulting, and local media to reach more people - Why therapist training teaches us to serve to depletion, and what that costs the profession Timestamps: 02:40 - How the private practice model has changed 04:40 - How clients seek help and find therapists now 10:08 - Using your intake data to find referral sources 17:47 - Finding the gaps in your client pipeline 22:57 - Diversifying income with contracts and EAP carve-outs 26:44 - Why therapists are taught to serve to depletion 35:20 - Trusting your expertise and speaking up Guest Bio: Dr. Ajita Robinson, LCPC, is a grief and trauma specialist and international bestselling author of The Gift of Grief: A Practical Guide on Navigating Loss, The Gift of Grief: Supporting Grieving Children, and The Purposeful & Profitable Therapist's Guide to Diversifying Income. She founded Friends in Transition Counseling Services in Bethesda, MD, and is CEO of Legacy Wellness Group, where she helps therapists build diversified income and sustainable private practices. Learn more at www.ajitarobinson.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Skill Issue or Systemic Reality? Systems, Platforms, and What Therapists Are Still Responsible For Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT on how systems shape private practice, therapy platforms, insurance reimbursement, burnout, and what therapists are still responsible for. A payer cuts reimbursement by 12 percent and adds a six page renewal form. A platform runs your credentialing, your marketing, and your client matching, and keeps the client relationship if you leave. Which parts of that belong to the system, and which parts are still yours to carry? Curt and Katie open a new sprint with two of the principles that hold up this show: systems shape practice, and the profession has to evolve with the world around it. Either one on its own turns into a trap. They test the pair against scenarios most therapists will recognize, including midnight crisis texts, a payer cutting rates, and an early career therapist working 32 clinical hours a week on a gig platform to cover rent. The answer keeps coming back both. From there they run a corporate translator on the marketing language aimed at clinicians, follow the fee into the treatment room, and look at the business preparation gap the profession creates and then hands back to each clinician to cover alone. Nobody wins this argument, and that is most of the point. In this episode, we discuss: - Why systemic pressure and personal responsibility are both live at once in private practice - What a therapy platform actually owns when it owns your credentialing, marketing, and referrals - How to read the marketing language behind phrases like working at the top of your license - Why business decisions, from your fee to your paperwork, are clinical decisions - What absorbing the system's failures costs you, and where the limit sits - Why the business preparation gap in this profession is structural Timestamps: - 02:00 - Systems shape practice, the first principle - 03:26 - The profession must evolve with the world - 08:43 - Skill issue or systemic reality, working the scenarios - 13:13 - Thirty two clinical hours a week to cover rent - 16:51 - Systems are real and you are still fully responsible - 19:06 - What you own when the platform owns your referrals - 25:29 - Translating corporate speak for therapists - 29:56 - Business decisions are clinical decisions - 31:50 - The business gap grad school does not fill Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Knowing When They're Ready: Navigating the Shift from Stabilization to Deeper Work in Psychotherapy Trauma readiness in DBT and EMDR: how to tell when a client is ready to move from stabilization into deeper work. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT walk through the judgment call at the center of trauma treatment, which is knowing when a client has the behavioral and autonomic stability to move past stabilization. Drawing on DBT stages of treatment, EMDR phase two and phase three, and recent research on trauma readiness, they cover what readiness looks like in session and in the week between sessions. Deeper work covers a lot of ground, from small titrated experiential moments through to full trauma reprocessing. Move too early and you get dysregulation, post-session distress spikes, and dropout. Stay in stabilization indefinitely and clients stall out, sometimes feeling managed rather than treated. Curt brings the structured version of this assessment from EMDR and comprehensive DBT. Katie brings the less protocol-bound version, where the shift happens session to session and sometimes mid-session. They also get practical about dual awareness, micro-markers of dissociation, window of tolerance tracking, the four-part pacing agreement that prevents most of these mistakes, and the therapist countertransference that pushes clinicians toward premature processing. This is a continuing education podcourse. One unit of CE is available through the Modern Therapist Learning Community at moderntherapistcommunity.com. In this episode, we discuss: - Why trauma readiness is a fluctuating state rather than a milestone a client reaches once - How to tell intellectual eagerness apart from behavioral and autonomic capacity - Why stabilization shortens trauma treatment instead of delaying it - What dual awareness requires before EMDR reprocessing or DBT stage two work - How to build a pacing agreement, including a code word and a dissociation preference set at intake - What to do when your own impatience is driving the timeline Timestamps: - 07:02 - What readiness actually means, and why it prevents dropout - 13:38 - Readiness as a state, and the three pillars - 23:29 - What clients report when they are pushed too deeply, too soon - 31:19 - Dual awareness explained - 32:49 - Why stabilization shortens treatment - 38:02 - The false green light, and consistency under stress - 53:26 - Micro-dissociation at target activation - 59:50 - Building the pacing agreement Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com CE credit: moderntherapistcommunity.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Your Client Is Not a Category: Binary Thinking, Gender Trauma, and Presence as a Clinical Skill - An Interview with Alex Iantaffi Alex Iantaffi, Ph.D., LMFT, author of Gender Trauma, on binary thinking, gender trauma, and presence as a clinical skill. Curt and Katie talk with Alex Iantaffi about why binary thinking is a clinical problem before it is a political one. Therapists are trained to sort: into diagnoses, into special populations, into victim and perpetrator. Alex argues that the sorting habit costs us the person sitting in front of us, and that gender is where it shows up most visibly. Alex traces the rigid gender binary to colonial and Christian supremacist thinking rather than to biology, then shows how it surfaces in everyday couples and family work: in parenting expectations, in who is allowed to earn more, in who gets to have an appetite. Everyone is shaped by gender trauma, including cisgender clients whose gendered pain has never once been asked about, and Alex states plainly that Black and Brown trans feminine people and Indigenous people bear the heaviest cost of it. The conversation also covers two systemic models Alex uses to read what is happening in the room, why they choose the language of gender liberation, and what it means to be an accomplice rather than an ally. Alex's practical starting point is smaller than most listeners will expect: presence. This is a useful conversation for all therapists, especially family and couples therapists, clinical supervisors, and any therapist working with gender, sexuality, and relationship diversity. In this episode, we discuss: - Why "special population" framing quietly installs cisgender, heterosexual, and monogamous as the default - How colonial constructions of gender show up in everyday couples and family work - What therapists miss when they cast clients as victim or perpetrator - Why the manosphere reads as a symptom of collective gender trauma - How to track relational patterns instead of sorting clients into categories - What gender liberation asks of therapists that gender abolition does not - Why presence may be the most underrated clinical skill in the room Timestamps: - 03:38 - The blind spot in how therapists are trained on gender and sexuality - 11:44 - The colonial roots of the rigid gender binary - 15:54 - The gendered pain cisgender clients carry unexamined - 20:21 - The manosphere as collective gender trauma - 24:57 - Social GRRAACCEESS and positionality in the room - 29:33 - Non-binary thinking as an ongoing practice - 36:30 - Gender liberation, and being an accomplice rather than an ally - 40:45 - Presence as an underrated clinical skill Guest Bio: Alex Iantaffi, Ph.D., MS, SEP, CST, CST-S, LMFT (they/them) is a systemic psychotherapist, WPATH certified gender specialist, AASECT certified sex therapist and supervisor, Somatic Experiencing(R) practitioner, and AAMFT Approved Supervisor and Supervisor Mentor. They are the author of the award-winning Gender Trauma, co-author of How to Understand Your Gender, Life Isn't Binary, and Hell Yeah Self-Care, and editor of the Trans and Disabled anthology. Alex hosts the podcast Gender Stories. Learn more at alexiantaffi.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Just a Hypothesis: Case Formulation and Treatment Planning for Real-World Therapy - An Interview with Nikki Rubin, PsyD Nikki Rubin, PsyD on behavioral case formulation, treatment planning, and clinical decision-making for therapists. Curt and Katie talk with Nikki Rubin, PsyD, licensed clinical psychologist and co-founder and COO of MindScience Collective, about what case formulation looks like when it is built for real-world therapy instead of for a graduate school assignment. Most of us learned case conceptualization as an exhaustive academic exercise and then quietly stopped doing it. Nikki describes behavioral case formulation as one large working hypothesis: a holistic read on seven areas of a client's functioning that tells you what you are targeting, why, and what to do when treatment stalls. Formulation and treatment planning are inseparable, and neither one requires you to be a CBT therapist. Nikki walks through the seven components (drawn from the work of Jacqueline Persons, PhD), the traps clinicians fall into, how to operationalize target behaviors, why structure creates flexibility rather than rigidity, and what a scaled-down formulation looks like under session limits or in crisis work. A useful conversation for therapists across orientations, for supervisors and educators, and for anyone who has felt unsure where a treatment is going. In this episode, we discuss: - The three traps therapists fall into with case formulation - The seven areas of a behavioral case formulation, and why they work across orientations - Why a formulation is a set of hypotheses to test, not conclusions to defend - How to operationalize target behaviors so you can track them in session - Why covert behaviors (worry, rumination, suppression) belong in your formulation - How to scale a formulation down when you are short on time or sessions Timestamps: - 04:16 - The traps therapists fall into with case formulation - 08:56 - The seven areas of a behavioral case formulation - 15:05 - What case formulation looks like in real time - 17:59 - From formulation to treatment planning and target behaviors - 21:04 - Does structure make case formulation rigid? - 29:35 - Case formulation under time pressure and session limits - 36:17 - Where to start if you have not done this since graduate school Guest Bio: Nikki Rubin, Psy.D. is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and other 3rd wave cognitive behavioral therapies. She is an Associate Clinical Professor at UCLA, where she trains doctoral students in ACT, and co-founder and COO of MindScience Collective, a continuing education company for clinicians. Learn more at mindsciencecollective.com and drnikkirubin.com. Special offer for Modern Therapist listeners: use code MTSG10 for 10% off at mindsciencecollective.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

What This Work Asks of Therapists: Integration, Not Knowing, and the Capacity to Stay - An Interview with Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, on therapist integration, not knowing, and the capacity to stay in the room. Curt and Katie talk with Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, about what determines how much a therapist can do in session. Her answer is not which model you reach for, but how integrated you are while you reach for it. Jules wrote Setting Boundaries That Stick and created the STAIR Method. Jules separates eclectic practice, pulling from whichever training fits the moment, from integrative practice, where one theory of mind and theory of change organizes which tool gets used when. Hers is neurobiological: the brain as an open, dynamic, complex system, most stable and most flexible when its parts stay differentiated and cross-share information. She also names what she thinks training got wrong. Many therapists learned to read client comfort as the measure of their therapeutic presence, a poor gauge when most clients arrive in a threat state. Her alternative is the therapist's own integration, because that is what creates capacity for connection, bonding, and creativity when a session gets hard. In this episode, we discuss: - What separates integrative from eclectic practice - Why client comfort is an unreliable measure of therapeutic presence - How adding compassion to empathy keeps a clinician from fatiguing - What humility and self-kindness predict about client outcomes - How power with differs from power over and power under - Why presence and skill have to be trained in the same state - What grief this job asks therapists to hold Timestamps: - 02:32 - Integrative therapy versus eclectic practice - 05:07 - Theory of mind, theory of change, and integration - 09:10 - What therapists get wrong about presence - 16:27 - Why empathy fatigues and compassion does not - 19:36 - Color shifting and finding felt compassion - 28:11 - PONS: power, of-courseness, not knowing, and self - 35:23 - The salience network, presence, and skill - 38:41 - The grief this work asks you to hold Guest Bio: Juliane Taylor Shore, LMFT, LPC, SEP, is a therapist, author, and teacher who translates neurobiology into practices that support brain change. She wrote Setting Boundaries That Stick, created the STAIR Method, and is an associate Instructor with the Coherence Institute and core faculty with Therapy Wisdom. Learn more at julianetaylorshore.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

The Clinical Depth Principle: Why Therapy Cannot Be Reduced to Tools, Hacks, and Sound Bites Curt and Katie on the clinical depth principle: case conceptualization, pacing, and the limits of coping skills. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT take on this month's modern therapist principle, clinical depth over simplification, and the two extremes the profession keeps swinging between. On one side is a therapy culture shaped by medicalization, medical necessity documentation, productivity pressure, and pop psychology trends that flatten complicated people into one size fits all narratives. On the other is the overcorrection, where clinical ambition outpaces the client and depth work turns into chasing catharsis before the relationship can hold it. Curt and Katie talk about why reaching for a worksheet is usually a reaction to real systemic pressure rather than a lack of care, how tools can quietly become the therapist's own defense mechanism, and why premature depth without pacing or consent can push a client outside their window of tolerance. They also describe what clinical depth looks like in their own sessions, from process versus content and case conceptualization to helping clients track their capacity, not just their story. A useful conversation for therapists, supervisors, and clinicians in community mental health or private practice who want deeper clinical reasoning without flooding their clients. In this episode, we discuss: - Why the pull toward tools, hacks, and protocols is a response to systemic pressure - How medicalization and medical necessity documentation shape what happens in session - Why social media has become the cheapest available substitute for clinical consultation - The difference between content and process in ongoing clinical work - Why premature depth, without pacing or consent, is not clinical depth - How to track a client's capacity rather than only their story - What it takes to build your own capacity for deep clinical work Timestamps: 01:53 - The principle: clinical depth over simplification 04:19 - Medicalization and the trade therapists made for legitimacy 09:47 - Content versus process in ongoing clinical work 11:46 - Tools as the therapist's defense mechanism 14:51 - Social media as the cheapest available consultation 19:03 - Premature depth, consent, and common factors 22:47 - What the research says about symptom control versus depth 24:44 - Everything is process, everything is pattern 27:12 - Tracking capacity, not just story 30:23 - Building the capacity to do deep work Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Burnout Before Licensure: Why Prelicensed Therapist Exhaustion Is a Supervision Problem, Not a Time Management Problem A continuing education episode on prelicensed therapist burnout, clinical supervision, and why early career exhaustion is a systemic problem rather than a time management one. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT examine why prelicensed clinicians are entering the mental health workforce already depleted. Client acuity climbed during the pandemic and has not come back down, the least experienced clinicians are frequently assigned the most complex cases, and roughly a third of the work week goes to compliance, tracking, and billing. Add student loan debt, low paid and unpaid associate and practicum roles, and severe evaluation anxiety, and burnout arrives long before licensure. This is not a self-care episode, and Curt and Katie say so at the top: no toxic positivity, no bubble bath prescriptions. They treat prelicensee burnout as a systemic and relational problem, then look at clinical supervision as the place it can realistically be buffered. That includes the supervisor seat, where new supervisors often receive no training in how to supervise, absorb vicarious trauma from every caseload they oversee, and watch as much as 90 percent of the supervision hour get swallowed by administrative work. The back half of the episode is practical. Supervisees get transition rituals, boundary architecture, and a realistic look at managing up. Supervisors get better check-in questions, guidance on modeling vulnerability, and structural adjustments they can make in the next supervision hour. This is a continuing education podcourse. One unit of CE is available through the Modern Therapist Learning Community at moderntherapistcommunity.com. In this episode, we discuss: * Why prelicensed clinicians burn out at higher rates than their licensed colleagues * How burnout presents differently before licensure, as exhaustion, brain fog, and vicarious trauma rather than cynicism * Why treating early career exhaustion as a rite of passage is a supervisory failure * What supervisors are carrying that supervisees rarely see * Concrete strategies supervisees can use without waiting for a supervisor to change * How supervisors can build restorative space into the structure of supervision * Why note lag is a signal of clinical capacity rather than poor organization Timestamps: 00:54 - Why prelicensees arrive already exhausted 02:41 - CE objectives and the systemic frame 09:40 - The data on prelicensed burnout rates 14:26 - The competency trap 17:36 - How burnout looks different before licensure 22:32 - The supervision paradox and the 90 percent problem 29:06 - Strategies for supervisees 37:37 - Strategies for supervisors 50:31 - Case vignette: note lag as a capacity signal 1:04:58 - Key takeaways and call to action Full show notes, references, and CE information: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

You Can't Pizza Party Your Way Out of Burnout: Moral Injury, Compassion Fatigue, and Treating Healthcare Workers - An Interview with Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD, and Lucy Li, MD Kimberly Johnson, PhD, and Lucy Li, MD, of the Emotional PPE Project on healthcare worker mental health and moral injury. Curt and Katie talk with Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD, a counselor educator at Touro University with more than thirty years of clinical experience in trauma, crisis, and disaster mental health, and Lucy Li, MD, a pediatric anesthesiologist at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia. Both serve on the board of the Emotional PPE Project, a volunteer-run nonprofit reducing the barriers that keep healthcare workers from accessing mental health care. Healthcare workers rarely arrive in therapy looking the way the distress would suggest. They mask, they overcompensate, and they spend session time explaining the job before they get to what the job has done to them. Kimberly describes the trifecta therapists often flatten into ordinary workplace burnout: burnout, compassion fatigue and complex trauma, and moral injury braided together, frequently presenting subclinically. Lucy describes the same terrain from inside medicine, including what shifted for her after her friend and co-resident died by suicide during residency. They also walk through the Emotional PPE Project's directory of volunteer therapists and its ePPE 101 training for mental health professionals who want to work with healthcare workers well. In this episode, we discuss: - Why healthcare workers are a heterogeneous population, not a single clinical profile - How burnout, complex trauma, and moral injury show up together and subclinically - The intake questions that surface occupational risk factors early - Why moral injury sits where occupational, vocational, and personal identity stop aligning - What stigma costs healthcare workers, their patients, and the workforce - How the Emotional PPE Project connects healthcare workers to free, confidential care - Why the same barriers show up for therapists as healthcare providers Timestamps: - 02:38 - What therapists get wrong with healthcare workers - 07:11 - Professional humility and the questions worth asking early - 09:24 - Burnout, trauma, and moral injury as a trifecta - 15:30 - Where moral injury actually lives - 17:43 - Stigma and the fear of seeking care - 22:00 - The second victim effect and being sent home - 25:10 - Beyond pizza parties: what structural support looks like - 33:27 - Inside the Emotional PPE Project and ePPE 101 Guest Bios: Kimberly Johnson, PhD, LMHCD is Director of Special Projects and Assistant Professor in Clinical Mental Health Counseling at Touro University, a licensed therapist in New York, a certified Compassion Fatigue Therapist and Educator and Field Traumatologist, and a Diplomate with the American Academy of Experts in Traumatic Stress. Lucy Li, MD is an attending anesthesiologist in Pediatric Anesthesiology at the Children's Hospital of Philadelphia and a board member of the Emotional PPE Project. She completed her anesthesiology residency at Massachusetts General Hospital, where she was chief resident, and focuses on physician mental health and wellness. Learn more at emotionalppe.org Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Rest, By Force or By Choice: Burnout, Self-Care, and Sustainable Practice for Therapists - An Interview with Cecily Moore, PhD Dr. Cecily Moore on burnout, rest as a clinical intervention, and unlearning the Strong Black Woman Narrative. Curt and Katie talk with Dr. Cecily Moore, a licensed therapist, counselor educator, and clinical supervisor, about why the expectation of endless strength and infinite patience is an unsustainable ask for therapists and other helping professionals. As clinicians carry collective grief and moral exhaustion alongside their clients, Dr. Moore reframes what burnout is actually asking of us. At the center of the conversation is a simple, uncomfortable idea: your body is designed to protect you, so you will stop either by force or by choice. Dr. Moore makes the case for rest as a clinical intervention rather than a reward, unpacks how self-care has been co-opted into something you buy instead of something that restores you, and explains why advocacy that runs on depletion is a ticking time bomb. Real self-care, she argues, is honest about limits, boundaries, and capacity. From there the discussion turns practical. Dr. Moore shares how deeper values work (asking where a value came from and how it was modeled) opens the door to change, how her "BS Job" checklist gives clinicians a concrete mirror for what is draining them, and why systems will not shift until the people inside them do. She also connects this to her research on unlearning the Strong Black Woman Narrative and the survival-based beliefs about strength, productivity, and worth that keep so many helpers over-functioning. This is a grounded, hopeful conversation for any therapist trying to build a sustainable career without abandoning the work they care about. In this episode, we discuss: - Why endless strength and infinite patience are an unsustainable ask for helping professionals - How to tell rest as a clinical intervention apart from self-care that has been co-opted - Why your body will make you stop, by force or by choice - How to size your advocacy to your actual capacity so it does not deplete you - What deeper values work looks like, and why it drives real change - Why unlearning survival-based beliefs about strength and worth makes practice more sustainable Timestamps: - 01:20 - Who Dr. Moore is and what she puts into the world - 02:49 - What therapists get wrong about endless strength and infinite patience - 04:17 - Collective trauma and watching the world change in real time - 06:37 - Moral injury, privilege, and truth-telling across lived experience - 10:29 - How self-care got co-opted, and why advocacy runs on your well-being - 13:07 - Why rest feels so scary - 15:00 - Reframing self-care as self-maintenance - 18:58 - Over-functioning students and learning to be human - 22:49 - Insight versus implementation, and the systemic barriers - 24:15 - Why systems can't shift until the people do - 28:13 - Sustainable choices, by force or by choice - 29:16 - Values work and the "BS Job" checklist - 31:24 - The Strong Black Woman Narrative and questioning conditioning - 35:28 - Where to find Dr. Moore Guest Bio: Dr. Cecily Moore is a licensed therapist, counselor educator, researcher, and clinical supervisor with a PhD in Counselor Education and Supervision. She is the founder of Dr. Cecily Moore & Associates and the creator of the Reappropriate, Redefine, Recover framework, which helps Black women unlearn the Strong Black Woman Narrative and the survival-based beliefs around strength, productivity, and worth that fuel burnout. Her work blends trauma-informed care, nervous system regulation, and culturally responsive practice, and reframes rest as a clinical intervention, not a reward. Learn more at drcecilymoore.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Suffering Is Collective, and So Is Healing: Belonging, Ritual, and Meaning in Uncertain Times - An Interview with Suzan Song, MD Suzan Song, MD, psychiatrist and medical anthropologist, on why suffering is collective and healing comes through belonging, ritual, and meaning. Curt and Katie talk with Suzan Song, MD about why the exhaustion so many therapists and clients are carrying right now is not only personal. Drawing on more than two decades of global mental health work with survivors of war, trafficking, and mass violence, Suzan makes the case that distress is often collective, shaped by culture and unstable systems, and that healing happens through belonging, narrative, ritual, meaning, and agency, not symptom elimination alone. She names what American mental health training often misses when it treats suffering as something bounded inside a single person, and offers concrete, low-cost rituals therapists can use to stay grounded. The conversation moves from collective grief and moral exhaustion to the difference between functioning and healing, and to grounding in relationship: who you matter to, and who matters to you. This is a grounding conversation for therapists feeling stretched by the current moment, and for anyone drawn to a global mental health lens on collective trauma, ritual, and sustainable healing. In this episode, we discuss: - Why the distress therapists and clients carry right now is collective, not only individual - What American mental health training misses when it locates suffering inside a bounded self - How belonging, narrative, ritual, and meaning function as healing - Why functioning is not the same as healing - Grounding in relationship as an alternative to purely individual nervous-system regulation - How small acts of agency protect against demoralization - Low-cost rituals therapists can use to keep moral exhaustion from following them home Timestamps: 01:44 - Who Suzan Song is and what she puts into the world 02:58 - How a medical anthropology lens changes clinical work 05:34 - When the self is collective, not bounded 09:18 - Collective suffering and the loss of agency 12:18 - Moral injury and disengagement in therapists 17:23 - Finding your own rituals as a therapist 24:07 - Grounding in relationship 28:13 - Why functioning is not healing Guest Bio: Suzan Song, MD, MPH, PhD is a child, adolescent, and adult psychiatrist and medical anthropologist, and a professor of psychiatry at George Washington University. She has spent more than two decades advising on mental health and psychosocial support (MHPSS) in humanitarian and conflict-affected settings, and is the author of Why We Suffer and How We Heal (Harmony / Penguin Random House, 2026). Learn more at suzansong.com. Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

Sustainability Is a Fundamental Responsibility: Therapist Burnout, Moral Injury, and the Systems We Practice Within Therapist burnout, sustainability, and moral injury, and why fixing burnout can't land on individual clinicians alone. Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT kick off a series of discussions on modern therapist principles with the one that shapes almost everything they cover: sustainability is a fundamental responsibility, paired with the reminder that therapists are human first. Nine years into the show, they revisit a question they keep returning to. If therapist burnout is a systemic problem, why does the job of solving it keep landing on individual clinicians? It is a framing the show has argued for since 2017, and it still cuts against most of the advice therapists are sold about fixing their own burnout by charging their worth and tightening their own schedules. This episode holds a both/and at its center. You are responsible for practicing competently and staying well enough to do the work, and yet shrinking reimbursement, vertically integrating insurance companies, inconsistent platforms, and constant collective crisis sit far outside any one therapist's control. Curt and Katie talk honestly about martyrdom, moral injury, and the polished corporate language now reshaping the field, then name the four places where sustainability tends to break down: too much work, not enough of the right work, work that betrays your values, and isolation. They also name what is shifting fastest right now, from AI and insurance chatbots to platforms that lower fees and fragment how clinicians document their work. Burnout is not a personal failing, and sustainability is not something you can white-knuckle alone. This conversation makes the case for navigating the system as it is, a refusal to accept that it has to stay that way, and building community on purpose, through consultation groups, networks, and professional relationships, as one of the few reliable protections therapists have. It is honest company for a problem the profession has not solved, plus a look at the collective work that might eventually move it. In this episode, we discuss: - Why therapist burnout is a systemic problem, not an individual failing - How to hold the both/and of working within the system while working to change it - The four ways sustainability breaks down, and how to spot them in your own practice - Why moral injury and isolation can be harder to carry than sheer overwork - How consultation and community become a real strategy for sustainability - What collective action, including guild-style organizing, could eventually require Timestamps: - 01:17 - The principle: sustainability is a fundamental responsibility, and therapists are human first - 04:41 - Nine years in: why systemic burnout still isn't fixed - 06:47 - Martyrdom, sacrificial helping, and band-aiding a broken system - 10:21 - What years of burnout and advocacy episodes have taught us - 16:31 - Seductive corporate language and the insurance chatbot future - 20:33 - Four ways sustainability gets hindered - 23:36 - Isolation and strategically building community - 26:31 - Building the plane while flying it: delayed competence and shared trauma - 32:10 - No more therapist martyrdom, and a word from Audre Lorde Full show notes and transcript: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/c/mtsgpodcast Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/

What It Means to Be a Modern Therapist: The Principles That Guide Our Work Curt Widhalm, LMFT, and Katie Vernoy, LMFT, on the principles that define a sustainable, ethical, modern therapy practice. After nearly nine years and almost 500 episodes, Curt and Katie step back to name what the Modern Therapist's Survival Guide actually stands for. This episode lays out the guiding principles behind the show, the standards they hold and the practices they refuse, and reintroduces the hosts and the experience that shapes how they show up. Across nearly a decade of conversations, the same themes keep resurfacing. Therapists are human first, and neutrality is more myth than reality. Sustainability is a professional responsibility, not a luxury, which means martyrdom, self-sacrifice, and exploitative business models are no-goes rather than badges of dedication. Clinical depth matters more than ever in an era of influencer psychology, short-form content, and AI. Representation and inclusion strengthen the field, while gatekeeping and elitism weaken it. Systems shape practice in ways no amount of self-care can fix. Therapists are stewards of their own profession through advocacy, leadership, and calling each other in. And the work has to keep evolving, met with critical thinking rather than fear-based rejection or unexamined enthusiasm. Curt and Katie also explain why they are naming these principles now: to frame a run of upcoming deep dives that take these themes further with guests and conversations built to move past lip service. Taken together, the principles work less like a mission statement and more like a filter for the decisions therapists face every week, from which job to take to which trend to adopt and which one to let pass. Whether you have listened since the beginning or found the show last week, this is a clear look at where Curt and Katie are coming from, and an invitation to build a practice that is more human, more sustainable, and more connected to a community of therapists working through the same questions you are. In this episode, we discuss: - Why "therapists are human first" still matters in an era of corporate consolidation and AI - How to build a sustainable practice free from martyrdom - What keeps clinical depth relevant against influencer psychology and short-form content - Why representation, inclusion, and systems awareness strengthen the whole field - How therapists can act as stewards of the profession without shaming or policing - What it looks like to evolve with the field through critical thinking, not fear or hype Timestamps: - 00:15 - Nine years in: why this episode now - 02:54 - Curt and Katie reintroduce themselves - 06:46 - The modern therapist principles and no-goes - 07:09 - Therapists are human first - 10:26 - Sustainability as a fundamental responsibility - 12:49 - Clinical depth over simplification - 16:21 - Representation and inclusion strengthen the field - 18:57 - Systems shape practice - 20:49 - Therapists as stewards of the profession - 22:55 - Evolving with the field through critical thinking - 25:21 - An invitation to join the community Full show notes and resources: mtsgpodcast.com Join the Modern Therapist Community Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/therapyreimagined Modern Therapist's Survival Guide Creative Credits Voice Over by DW McCann: https://www.facebook.com/McCannDW/ Music by Crystal Grooms Mangano: https://groomsymusic.com/