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Today I’m talking with Josh Dzieza, a longtime features writer here at The Verge, about a massive data center in Utah that does not exist, might never exist, and yet has already completely reshaped the politics of the entire state.  Josh just published a major feature this week on the struggling Stratos data center project in Utah backed by Shark Tank star Kevin O’Leary. So I invited Josh on the show to discuss what’s happening inside the AI industry’s infrastructure boom, inside the bipartisan backlash to data centers, and how the tech industry is running into the one obstacle it can’t seem to spend its way out of: local democracy.  Links:  The People of Utah vs. Kevin O'Leary | The Verge Adams — burdened by data center fallout — ousted by voters | Salt Lake Tribune ‘Shark Tank’ star sued by opponents he claimed were foreign agents| NYT Fox News apologizes for airing O’Leary claims about data centers | The Hill Kevin O’Leary agrees to downsize massive Utah data center | The Verge The biggest data center ever is becoming a huge problem in Utah | The Verge America's data center future is Loudoun County's past | The Verge The left and right agree on one thing: no data centers | Decoder Decoder is a Signal Awards finalist in the Business category! You can vote to help us win ⁠here⁠. Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Mike Cannon-Brookes, who is co-founder and CEO of Atlassian. Atlassian is one of those companies that every other company runs on — it makes important platform tools like Jira and Trello. This means Atlassian is also right in the middle of the way AI is changing how all these companies work.  Or, if you buy the idea of the so-called SaaSpocalypse, AI might just build all of these tools for you, destroying this entire category of businesses. Obviously, Mike had a lot of thoughts pushing back on this narrative, so we spent time really digging in and talking through what AI is doing to enterprise software.  Links:  How Australia became the test bed for tech regulation | Decoder (2021) Building a $45B company far from Silicon Valley’s ‘froth and bubbles’ | Semafor Atlassian CEO Mike Cannon-Brookes on Atlassian and AI | Stratechery How Atlassian shook off the 'SaaSpocalypse' for a big rally  | IBD Atlassian acquires The Browser Company, maker of the Arc browser | The Verge Atlassian Co-CEO resigns, leaving Cannon-Brookes as sole chief | Bloomberg Atlassian cuts 1,600 jobs amid AI push | Forbes Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinde Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Cloudflare discovered in June that bots already make up more than half of internet traffic — and CEO Matthew Prince says that bots could outnumber humans a thousand to one within five years. That's a huge change to the internet, and if the web is going to keep existing, it needs a huge change to its business model. Can Cloudflare use its place in the ecosystem to direct the money back to the people who make content? Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How I choose which Cloudflare employees to replace with AI | Wall Street Journal Why Cloudflare CEO Matthew Prince is the internet’s unlikely defender | Decoder (2024) Cloudflare will now block AI crawlers by default | The Verge Patreon partners with Cloudflare to block AI crawlers | 404 Media Sony and Warner sue Anthropic in latest AI music lawsuit | Billboard Trump administration supports OpenAI in NYT copyright lawsuit  | The Verge Google Zero is here — now what? | The Verge (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s a big week for Meta. The company has its big Connect conference, and the new Muse AI agent appears to be an early hit. CEO Mark Zuckerberg has been doing a lot of interviews about it all — so of course we asked for him to be on Decoder. Meta declined, for whatever reason.  But luckily Mark just did a big interview with our friend and former colleague Alex Heath on the Sources podcast. So I figured we could highlight some moments from that conversation to point out some obvious gaps in what Mark is saying about Meta and hopefully inspire the next set of people who talk to him with some follow-up questions. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Mark Zuckerberg interview | Sources Podcast How Meta got everything it wanted in secret data center deal | New York Times Can you forget how you feel about Meta? | The Verge Zuck doesn’t want to press pause on AI | The Verge Meta glasses are a workplace menace | The Verge Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t understand how to live | The Verge Four takeaways from Mark Zuckerberg’s massive AI manifesto | The Verge Meta says US states are seeking $1.4 trillion in penalties  | Reuters Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Bloomberg’s Mark Gurman, who is the world’s best-sourced Apple reporter. Earlier this month, Apple hosted its annual iPhone hardware event, and this event was special, for a number of reasons.  It was new Apple CEO John Ternus’ first major product launch. It was also the debut of the foldable iPhone Duo. So I wanted Mark on the show to explain why this event was so important, and how John Ternus’ Apple will look a lot different from Tim Cook’s.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Apple iPhone Duo launch event: the 5 biggest announcements | The Verge The iPhone Duo is Apple’s first foldable | The Verge Tim Cook’s CEO-like pay package shows he isn’t going anywhere | Bloomberg Apple’s Phil Schiller steps down from running App Store | Bloomberg Apple’s new CEO will need to soon overhaul his management team | Bloomberg Apple’s Ternus takes the reins as CEO, with AI as job No. 1 | Bloomberg Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. The CEOs of all these companies have issued various calls to slow down development and develop regulation, including asking for antitrust exemptions so they can all coordinate on safety issues. So to make sense of it all, I called Jonathan Kanter, the former antitrust chief for the U.S. Department of Justice in the Biden Administration. There's a lot going on, and we really got into the weeds of how all this regulation might work, and how it might interact with antitrust law, competition policy, and our relationship with China. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge Inside the suddenly explosive world of AI safety | The Verge Execs and politicians on slowing down AI development | The Verge Microsoft AI CEO: AI threats are real, Anthropic makes it worse | The Verge Lina Khan: We don’t need new laws to prosecute AI CEOs | Gizmodo Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Mustafa Suleyman, the CEO of Microsoft AI. As you’re no doubt aware, the biggest story in tech right now is the spiraling debate about AI safety and regulation. So I really wanted to talk to Mustafa about what he thinks is real and not in AI safety, whether the concept of alignment itself is up to the task, and whether this industry needs to slow down before it kills us all.  Read the ⁠full interview transcript on The Verge⁠. Links:  A warning about ‘model welfare’ | Mustafa Suleyman Humanist AI Code of Conduct | Microsoft Is Big Tech’s AI slowdown a safety pact or a cartel? | The Verge A brief history of AI executives calling for regulation | The Verge What execs and politicians are saying about slowing down AI development | The Verge Anthropic CEO says it’s time to pump the brakes on AI | The Verge Microsoft’s AI chief says superintelligence is near, but won’t take your job | Decoder (2026) Mustafa Suleyman says conversational AI is the next web browser | Decoder (2024) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Kabir Chopra. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Adam Conover is a familiar face to anyone who’s spent time on the internet. He got his start at CollegeHumor back in the day, before transitioning into cable TV with Adam Ruins Everything, then onto Netflix, and all the way back to YouTube again, where he posts videos and hosts a podcast. That is exactly the kind of career path that fascinates me, and it also happens to touch on basically every major Decoder theme there is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  YouTube is making it harder to earn money on YouTube | The Verge Adam Conover regrets shilling Sam Altman’s World | The Verge Elon Musk is an idiot | Adam Conover How HBO’s creatives survived corporate chaos | Decoder YouTube’s Neal Mohan on the future for creators | Decoder (2021) Banning Trump was the right decision, says Instagram’s Mosseri | Decoder (2021) Ethics in journalism, with Ben Smith | Decoder Hank Green will gladly take billionaires’ money for education | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We’re back with another Decoder mailbag special. This time, we focused on feedback to Nilay’s “software brain” video essay, our ongoing coverage of AI and Big Tech backlash, surveillance, interviewing politicians ahead of the midterms, and more. Remember: we really do read every email, so please keep sending us your feedback, and letting us know what you think of our coverage and how we can improve.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  How to win — and lose — Decoder | Decoder Mailbag (2026) Nilay answers your burning Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2025) Answering your biggest Decoder questions | Decoder Mailbag (2024) Sundar Pichai on AI, search, and the future of the web | Decoder (2026) The people do not yearn for automation | Decoder Bluesky’s new CEO wants a big tent, not a bubble | Decoder New York Governor Kathy Hochul thinks AI should be ‘less evil’ | Decoder Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Gregg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Sonos CEO Tom Conrad. Tom was on the board at Sonos during the disastrous 2024 app redesign that threatened to crash the entire brand, and he took over as interim CEO to right the ship during that period. About a year ago, he took the permanent role.  I have been dying to have Tom on the show to talk about how the board decided to move on from previous CEO Patrick Spence, how he diagnosed the issues inside the company, and what decisions he made to fix them. Plus. Tom was willing to get into the weeds and nerd out with me, and I think this one is pretty fun because of it. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  After two years of turmoil, Sonos attempts a triumphant return | The Verge How Sonos’ Tom Conrad Is reshaping the brand after app disaster | Bloomberg An in-depth interview with Sonos interim CEO Tom Conrad | The Verge (2025) Sonos’ smart assistant is expanding from music to home control | The Verge Inside Sonos’ decision to sue Google — and how it won | Decoder (2022) Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It’s an election year, with a shocking amount of tech policy at stake, and Gov.Hochul has taken strong positions on almost every major tech issue there is. You'll hear us talk about the settlement Meta reached with dozens of states, including New York, and about widespread age verification. We also discussed 3D printing ghost guns; surveillance and Flock cameras; the politics of building — or not building — AI data centers; and, of course, Mayor Zohran Mamdani. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links: New Yorkers will need to verify their age for algorithmic feeds | The Verge The cat-and-mouse game over 3D-printed guns has begun | The Verge Hochul says she’s using AI to analyze ‘every single rule’ in New York | The Verge NY becomes the first state to enact a data center moratorium | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today, I’m talking with Hayden Field, The Verge’s senior AI reporter, about some pure Decoder bait: the seemingly-endless org chart changes at OpenAI, and how all of them seem to consolidate power under cofounder Greg Brockman, the company’s president. While Sam Altman is the CEO and still OpenAI’s most public face, Brockman has amassed enormous power and influence within the top ranks of the company as other senior leaders have left in rapid succession. So I wanted Hayden to break down for me what’s going on at OpenAI, and the increasingly important role Greg Brockman will play in its future. Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  It’s Greg Brockman’s OpenAI now | The Verge OpenAI’s Brockman brushes off concerns about leadership changes | CNBC Sam Altman on building OpenAI & betting on the impossible | David Senra OpenAI’s Q2 sales show tepid growth compared to Anthropic | WSJ Anthropic's revenue run rate reportedly surpasses $65 billion pre-IPO | Axios OpenAI President On Reinventing Computers | Johanna Stern / YouTube Greg Brockman takes control of OpenAI’s products in latest shake-up | Wired OpenAI’s president is a Trump mega-donor | The Verge Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tim Cadogan is CEO of GoFundMe, the for-profit platform where you can donate to help people with everything from medical expenses to little league uniforms to starting a new business. Tim took over as CEO in March 2020 — a chaotic moment when GoFundMe became a load-bearing part of American culture. So you can imagine I had a lot of questions for Tim, how he thinks about all this, and how he makes some very tough decisions on what money to make and what money not to make.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The GoFundMe CEO wants you to ask: ‘How can I help?’ | New York TImes GoFundMe CEO: We weren't meant to replace COVID relief | USA Today GoFundMe Is a healthcare utility now | The Atlantic As Gaza is bombarded, GoFundMe donations are stuck in limbo | The Verge For the uninsured, crowdfunding provides little help in paying for healthcare | University of Washington Oregon nonprofits claim GoFundMe impersonated them | Central Oregon Daily News The causes and consequences of medical crowdfunding | ScienceDirect Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Greg Ott, Kate Cox, and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Eileen Felix. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today is Robert Hart, The Verge’s London-based AI reporter. Robert recently wrote a fantastic story for us about the debate raging inside the world of mathematics — and the existential crisis over what it means that new frontier AI models have become very good at math in a shockingly short period of time.  I wanted to dive into all of this with Robert, who actually spoke to some of the most accomplished mathematicians working today to figure out what’s hype and what’s real — and to get a sense of just how exciting, and how scary, all of this is.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  The AI takeover of mathematics has begun | The Verge Ten advances in mathematics and theoretical computer science | OpenAI An unreleased Anthropic model made progress on the Riemann hypothesis| TechCrunch OpenAI’s amazing — but vastly oversold — new model Astra | Gary Marcus OpenAI’s math breakthrough played to AI’s strengths | Understanding AI Why the legendary Erdős problems are falling to AI | Quanta Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Ursa Wright. Our supervising producer is Greg Ott, and our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Today I’m talking to Ben Smith, the editor-in-chief of Semafor. Ben ran BuzzFeed News at the height of the Facebook traffic boom, and even wrote a book about it, called Traffic, which he discussed with me on Decoder back in 2023.  Semafor, which is only four years old, is now a fast-growing and profitable media company, which makes about half of its revenue from events. So I wanted to talk to Ben about how that all works, and what it feels like to navigate the ethical conflicts that seem to be everywhere in media right now.  Read the full interview transcript on The Verge. Links:  Jonah Peretti explains why he sold BuzzFeed | Decoder What’s after the social media era in news? | Decoder (2023) Semafor raises $30 Million after first profitable year | The Wrap Semafor’s new AI tool helped boil down its flagship conference | Nieman Lab Semafor launches Silicon Valley & The World | Semafor Semafor takes aim at Davos as events surpass half Its revenue | Adweek Semafor Is Betting Big on 'Anti-Scale' Video | Adweek Semafor wants to be ‘business outlet of record in the Gulf” | Press Gazette Subscribe to The Verge to access the ad-free version of Decoder! Credits: Decoder is a production of The Verge and is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our Supervising Producer is Greg Ott and our Editorial Director is Kevin McShane.  The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices